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Post by ayslyn on Mar 29, 2016 9:21:20 GMT -8
This... A whole metric ton of this....
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Post by Probie Tim on Mar 29, 2016 9:56:46 GMT -8
Tomb of Horrors is a child of its time.
Looked at with today's standards it is an archaic, pointless walk through pretty much everything that we condemn on the podcast. Would any of us run something like the Tomb of Horrors today? Unless we were specifically playing a game to capture the feel and play-style of yesteryear, I think not.
But look at it from the standards of the time when it was released. I remember playing through it. My group (which consisted of two other buddies of mine back then, one of whom was the DM) beat our heads against that particular wall time and time again, each time getting wiped out, each time more intent on "winning" it.
I remember we had our DM run one set of character through every other gonzo module we had, solely with the purpose of buffing up the characters to deal with Acerack, the demi-lich. I was playing a... I think it was something stupid like a chaotic evil human assassin or something, maybe one of the anti-paladin classes from Dragon or something. We went through the Barrier Peaks, we went through the Demonweb Pits, we went all over the place to buff up for ToH. I think by the time we were done, my CE human whatever-"evil"-class-I-was-playing had laser guns (from Barrier Peaks) and a tentacle for one arm (in the Demonweb Pits the evil cleric cut off his arm so that he could have Restoration - I think that was the spell - cast on it; there was a special chart to roll on if that happened in Lolth's domain, and his arm came back a tentacle).
My point in all of this is that back then? It was amazing fun! We had so much fun throwing ourselves against that module time and time again, each time coming back with different gear or a different approach. Now? I wouldn't want to play something like that, except as a one-shot for the express purpose of re-living a slice of the "old school".
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Post by Kenigma23 on Mar 29, 2016 12:49:24 GMT -8
It is featured prominently in the book "Ready Player One." (an excellent book by Ernest Cline) I rest my case your honor.
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Post by mook on Mar 29, 2016 13:34:17 GMT -8
It is featured prominently in the book "Ready Player One." (an excellent book by Ernest Cline) I hear about this book all the time, it sounds super fun. I've been planning to wait for the movie in 2018, but who knows? I might get impatient.
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Post by Kenigma23 on Mar 29, 2016 13:41:28 GMT -8
The audio is read by Wil Wheaton and it is an amazingly well read book. I enjoyed the heck out of it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 14:14:33 GMT -8
Perhaps my assessment is wrong in that I come at it from a more modern perspective. Well, yes, right? For the same reason a critique like "Omg, 'Tarzan' is so racist!" doesn't bring much to the table. No shit it's racist, it's 100 years old. Assessing decades-old works through a modern lens is bound to end in tears. I will note that a quick glance at Wikipedia shows the adventure seems to be held in fairly high regard by folks in the industry. Anecdotally for myself, I've literally never heard anyone (in person) talk about ToH other than as a "classic" and a romping good time (admittedly, it's not like I've had 100 conversations about it -- but when it does come up, it's invariably as a nostalgic touchstone to the "old days"). While John Wick may have lied about what the book actually says, I think i'm still with him on this one. As far as the general public (not gary's home group or a specific convention event) goes, this game is toxic trash that should have to have the equivalent of a smoking warning on the cover. Clearly this is an "agree to disagree" issue. It basically sounds like you're saying "I'm judging a 40-year-old adventure by modern sensibilities, and holding a competitive tournament module to the standards of cooperative friendly play, and Wick lied/misrepresented everything about ToH... but it's still 'toxic trash.'" It does absolutely sound like a bad fit for you and your group, but it doesn't exactly sound like you plan to run it anytime soon. The fortunate thing is that, apart from Wick's single post, it isn't like ToH is some kind of problem, the scourge of modern gaming just chewing it's way through the hobby. It's a product written before many players were born, very specific to its time and place, a relic of the hobby's roots. I don't see why it has to be more than that. Except I'm near certain it is still for sale through the likes of drivethrurpg. We revise or remove racist books from the shelves of children. While rpg players are not kids, more and more of us have no context for this kind of game. So when we hear from nostalgic geeks how fun this is and go buy it, we get blind sided. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a section for these sorts of games. Not so dissimilar to how I think FATAL should be in a section apart from the likes of regular d&d. Sure you should be able to buy a copy, but there should be some kind of friendly, "Are you sure?" Warning at checkout.
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mrmanowar
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 74
Preferred Game Systems: Ones that I own.
Currently Playing: AS&SoH, AD&D various editions and Manowar CD's
Currently Running: D&D 5E, AS&SoH (Started!)
Favorite Species of Monkey: The ones that rhyme with donkey
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Post by mrmanowar on Mar 29, 2016 18:12:58 GMT -8
It is featured prominently in the book "Ready Player One." (an excellent book by Ernest Cline) I hear about this book all the time, it sounds super fun. I've been planning to wait for the movie in 2018, but who knows? I might get impatient. I would recommend the book. Quick read and plenty of trivia in there. Well worth your time.
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Post by shadrack on Mar 29, 2016 18:23:49 GMT -8
Not all of us remove or revise books. Huck Finn and HP Lovecraft are on my shelves and they have not been edited. If/when my kids choose to read them, I will be available to discuss the content with them.
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Post by mook on Mar 30, 2016 2:10:36 GMT -8
I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a section for these sorts of games. Not so dissimilar to how I think FATAL should be in a section apart from the likes of regular d&d. I just-- How the-- If "Tomb of Horrors" and "FATAL" are even remotely equivalent to you, then we're barely speaking the same language. I'm out.
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Post by Kenigma23 on Mar 30, 2016 7:33:19 GMT -8
I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a section for these sorts of games. Not so dissimilar to how I think FATAL should be in a section apart from the likes of regular d&d. I just-- How the-- If "Tomb of Horrors" and "FATAL" are even remotely equivalent to you, then we're barely speaking the same language. I'm out. Concur.
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Post by chronovore on Mar 30, 2016 16:31:42 GMT -8
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mrmanowar
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 74
Preferred Game Systems: Ones that I own.
Currently Playing: AS&SoH, AD&D various editions and Manowar CD's
Currently Running: D&D 5E, AS&SoH (Started!)
Favorite Species of Monkey: The ones that rhyme with donkey
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Post by mrmanowar on Mar 30, 2016 19:17:50 GMT -8
I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a section for these sorts of games. Not so dissimilar to how I think FATAL should be in a section apart from the likes of regular d&d. I just-- How the-- If "Tomb of Horrors" and "FATAL" are even remotely equivalent to you, then we're barely speaking the same language. I'm out. I uhh, have nothing to say to this one... Acererak never once tried a,,, "fatal" maneuver in the Greek Fashion or whatever one was thinking when making this correlation.
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Post by ilina on Mar 31, 2016 0:15:19 GMT -8
I just-- How the-- If "Tomb of Horrors" and "FATAL" are even remotely equivalent to you, then we're barely speaking the same language. I'm out. I uhh, have nothing to say to this one... Acererak never once tried a,,, "fatal" maneuver in the Greek Fashion or whatever one was thinking when making this correlation. i beleive what is intended as the point, is that Tomb of Horrors and F.A.T.A.L. are both subjects of Controversy in the current age. F.A.T.A.L. is even more Controversial by an entire Apocalypse. but both are fairly Controversial. Fatal is an 1,000 page AD&D clone with 900 pages dedicated to Glorifying Rape, which is about historically accurate or sensible as a morbidly obese hairy male Russian Dwarf with a floorlength beard, leprosy on his skin, wearing nothing but a Pink Satin G-String and wielding a massive purple dildo sword in each hand. Tomb of Horrors is controversial for far more innocent reasons, but it is still controversial. while FATAL will scar you for life with horrid visuals. ToH is the Epitome of Old School Player killing modules in an Era where it was considered okay to pull dick moves and haplessly murder half the party every encounter, because of the adversarial relationship between Player and Gamemaster it fostered, it is also what ToH represents. it is the poster child of a Still ongoing period of Dickish Adversarial GMing that hasn't fully died off. where characters are expected to die frequently, where nothing is better than the salty tears of players who lost their characters to pointless traps that would have logically killed the trapsmith long before they could have been completed. the Era where rogues were mandatory, because somebody had to disable the trap unless the party had a professional engineer, soldier or physicist among the players who could point out the fallacies of said trap out of character.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 0:19:44 GMT -8
Glad someone understood what I was saying.
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Post by ilina on Mar 31, 2016 1:03:52 GMT -8
i actually play on Saturdays with the Type of GM who actually would Run Tomb of Horrors. a bit of an Old School Adversarial guy that converted over to Savage Worlds, so he could focus more on the Sadism and less on tweaking the stat blocks.
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