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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2016 23:51:30 GMT -8
I was recently reading an article on John Wick's blog about the worst game ever (it's tomb of horrors in case you were wondering). In that article he talked about sitting on a panel with the aforementioned Gygax where Gary threw gamer slurs at him after the fact. This and other events in my life got me thinking about who's opinion really counts. As much as I'd like to put stock in the forefather of role playing games, I just can't help but think how unqualified he is.
So Gary Gygax made D&D and worked in the industry for a long time. You'd think this would qualify him, but discovery and understanding are two different things. You see, Gygax made D&D. I'm sure he also gained insight over the years, but he was never really a student of the media. Gygax was a creator first. He made it according to his desires. Tomb of Horrors was made out of a desire to show the players who was really boss. And that, folks, is crappy design and theory.
If we can't trust the George Washington of RPG's, who can we trust? Well, I'd say we need to stop putting our stock in people based on name recognition or industry status. Sooner or later you discover all these authorities are just people, sometimes ill informed people. As newbies we are insecure and seeking validation or permission instead of making the uncomfortable decision to decide for ourselves. This was the position I found myself in yesterday as I was talking to my instructor.
I'm an archery guy if you all haven't figured that out from my profile pictures and posts. Like any hobby there are many options for equipment to choose from and for a beginner it can be daunting. Thus I've been asking around about various arrow point designs to determine what is right for me. I've also done a lot of reading on both major camps when it comes to arrow design. I won't bore you all with the technical details, but I found out that my instructor had never even heard of the seminal study done for one side of the debate. All of a sudden I lost faith in his recommendations. If I knew more than he did it was back on me to figure it out.
And that brings me to the point of writing this. Perhaps it's time to stop putting people on pedestals and taking their word as law. It may be uncomfortable to finally figure out your father is just a man with faults and not a super hero, but it's something that needs to happen. Thank you Gygax for being the father of gaming, but you're drunk and it's time to go home.
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Post by uncommonman on Mar 20, 2016 2:11:13 GMT -8
I think many forget that rules are there as a framework to use to have fun.
The rules of an rpg is necessary to determine "objective" truth, who wins an encounter. If it is 50% chance of success roll a d20 under/over 10.
In archery you have rules in competitions, thry are there to make things fair. No compound bows in longbow competitions.
What is better is not necessary an objective fact.
D&D is supposed to be played a certain way but that way is not the best way of playing for everybody.
Archery is supposed to shoot an arrow, what arrow or bow is the best may not be the best bow or arrow for you.
I prefer an left hand compound 60 lbs. bow and glasfiber arrows with a round head and plastic fins, that is the best for me even if it isn't the best arrows.
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Post by ilina on Mar 20, 2016 3:02:01 GMT -8
Even Gary Gygax wasn't against dungeon masters modifying rules or using GM fiat to fit the setting. in Fact, it was Gary that wrote the Original Innkeeper Rule in the 1e DMG
meaning yes, you needed at least 1 score of 14 and couldn't have more than 1 score of 6 or lower.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 3:10:13 GMT -8
Just because there are multiple ways to skin a cat doesn't mean there isn't one that isn't objectively better given certain criteria. I absolutely will not discuss the specifics here as it isnt about gaming and may bother certain people. What I will say is that there is a difference between preference and performance. Given the criteria or limitations of an individual's skill and other factors, an ideal setup is possible.
Taking this back to gaming, we don't have to settle for substandard design just because it is familiar. D&D is very similar to a fiberglass arrow, shit. There is one good use for a fiberglass arrow which is for use in water. This is because they don't react and are tough. Similarly, original D&D has a robustness built on a lack of rules. You can't get the performance out of that fiberglass or old D&D that you could from carbon or a more modern system, but you also dont get exploding arrow shafts or games that collapse under the minutiae of complex rules. Instead of being afraid of that explosion, you just have to be a littl bit more careful. Inspect your shafts or read your books.
Also, if you want to see what I think D&D should be at its ideal, check out Torchbearer. It's by the same folks who made mouseguard, but is essentially a love letter to that older way of playing without needing to the thow out all the advancements of more modern games.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 3:13:13 GMT -8
Even Gary Gygax wasn't against dungeon masters modifying rules or using GM fiat to fit the setting. in Fact, it was Gary that wrote the Original Innkeeper Rule in the 1e DMG meaning yes, you needed at least 1 score of 14 and couldn't have more than 1 score of 6 or lower. I don't understand what this had to do with previous posts... At all. Is this supposed to be some kind of proof that I was wrong and we should all be writing in high Gygaxian?
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Post by greatwyrm on Mar 20, 2016 6:06:16 GMT -8
I think its completely appropriate to appreciate and respect Gary Gygax for starting the rpg ball rolling. But to dig up a different John Wick quote, "Sooner or later, everyone is going to realize we're all just making this stuff up." Gygax was the first, but we're all just making this stuff up.
Also, not everybody will be able to give you the advice you're looking for. Your archery instructor is probably a very nice person, who just didn't have the info you were looking for. Same with Gygax. If I want to run a game that will appeal to crunch-heavy wargamers, that's who I'm looking to. If I want strong story and character development, I'll probably look for other advice.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 20, 2016 7:22:00 GMT -8
Besides it was an article by John Wicks putting forward his version of a disagreement between him and EGG. Basically his perspective of events written to defend his position. What really happened? Dunno, as we don't have an independent citation to draw on. Did EGG cast gamer slurs? Or did John Wicks perceive EGG's comments that way in the greater context of having a difference of opinion? The thing with Internet and librarys etc is that you can always find an opinion and opinions will always be diverse. Your archery instructor may have his knowledge informed by references that you haven't researched yet, references that may already critique the research you cited - thus he may not have felt the need to go back to the research you were citing. In psychology people often cite the Berkley Prision Experiment, very few actually read the research paper itself . . . Even less are aware that this 'forbidden experiment' has been repeated recently with a different outcome. There are a host of opinions sourced from the original experiments and how one interprets the variant outcomes of the two actual experiments is informed as much by actual data as it is by simple choice (preference nee opinion). Research is a learned skill as it requires the ability to disentangle opinions from facts and to collate those facts fairly across the broader sweep of all the opinions. It's unfair to say you 'know more now than your instructor', it just that you 'know different' and that's not the same. Aaron
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 20, 2016 7:30:05 GMT -8
Besides it was an article by John Wicks putting forward his version of a disagreement between him and EGG. Basically his perspective of events written to defend his position. What really happened? Dunno, as we don't have an independent citation to draw on. Did EGG cast gamer slurs? Or did John Wicks perceive EGG's comments that way in the greater context of having a difference of opinion? This. One of my favourite sayings is "There are three sides to every story. Your side, their side, and the Truth."
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Mar 20, 2016 7:35:22 GMT -8
It's also worth pointing out that where possible, get as close as you can to the original source. The blog post in question says "Gary and I were on a game design panel together. I said something I don’t quite remember and he called me a “wanna be community theater actor.” I wanted to tell him how his adventure nearly lost me every friend I had when I was twelve. Didn’t seem appropriate at the time." which doesn't quite tally with the description "gamer slurs".
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mrmanowar
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 74
Preferred Game Systems: Ones that I own.
Currently Playing: AS&SoH, AD&D various editions and Manowar CD's
Currently Running: D&D 5E, AS&SoH (Started!)
Favorite Species of Monkey: The ones that rhyme with donkey
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Post by mrmanowar on Mar 20, 2016 10:10:36 GMT -8
Context is very important. Gary is in kind of a unique position because he has a voluminous amount of writings be it D&D, AD&D, magazine articles, personal correspondence, forum posts, etc. There is A LOT of his ideas out there. I agree with Fredrix on getting close to the source. When Dungeons and Dragons first came out, it was a very unique thing at the time in 1974. Almost from the get-go, people were photocopying rules, deciding they could do a better game, etc. Gary was on the defensive from the very beginning and I am sure as TSR got more successful pride and arrogance set in to some extent. Then when he lost control of TSR in 1985 I think people still asked him to weigh in on a game he no longer had control of and had no more creative input into. One could almost have an internal Gygax quote war where his "pronouncements from the throne" quotes seemed to contradict his "rulings not rules/DM overrides the rulebooks" quotes.
This hobby came out of a wargamer crowd. They played Diplomacy, they played Tractics, Napoleonic battles, etc. Chainmail, Don't Give up the Ship and the first TSR product Cavaliers and Roundheads preceded the publication of D&D. That style of player was probably very different than the full spectrum of game and play styles we have today. In it's context at the time it came out, you had players trying to kill Gygax's and Arneson's characters to "prove" they had better dungeons than the creators of the game. Tomb of Horrors was reactionary too, since two of Gary's players (his son Ernie and player Rob Kuntz) were very clever and had solved a lot of his challenges and he thought that up to challenge them (read Gary's forward to the module and notes from Return to the Tomb of Horrors). Also Tomb was initially conceived as a tourney module for a con. A deadly one shot.
All said, it's a weird dichotomy. It's kinda like in music where people point to someone like Jimi Hendrix and say he was the best guitarist ever and no one produced anything good on guitar since. I respect Jimi for what he did in originating a style and opening the door to influence other guitarists later to create excellent music. Same goes for Gary to me. He along with Dave Arneson and others opened a door to a hobby I love and enjoy. I like some of the old AD&D books he wrote. Expanded my vocabulary, got me creatively thinking, and having fun playing games with friends. Along the way I tried various other games. Even at the last Gary Con I mostly played games I never played before. The umbrella of games and creators of games is much bigger now. I like Gygax, I backed the John Wick KS for 7th Sea. I try not to have any kind of elitist attitude about any game and also remember game creators are human just like me. I said and did stupid things in the past, so did they. I'll roll the dice and play the games and have fun!
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Post by mook on Mar 20, 2016 14:15:58 GMT -8
I absolutely get not taking gaming advice from EGG, or any of the 'holy trinity' of Gygax, Arneson, and Wesely. The game they created is very, very different than the games we play today, their descendants. They and their experiences have next to nothing to teach me about running a modern GURPS game. I also don't take PC advice from the designers of the ENIAC, or car advice from Benz. What I don't get, at all, is the reflexive "Gygax? Fuck that piece of shit" attitude I seem to encounter all the time. (The rhetoric never seems directed at the other two, I assume because Gygax was much more outspoken and prolific). Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe it being a pet peeve means I'm more cognizant of it. But, like Hendrix above, it would be like saying "Hendrix? Fuck that poseur -- Stevie Ray all the way." It completely misses the point that there wouldn't be a Stevie Ray without Hendrix. Yes, sure, okay, maybe (maybe) eventually someone else would have invented D&D, and so on down the line. But those hypothetical people didn't -- Gygax actually did it. Wrote it up, mimeographed it, played it, got it out there. I'm not saying we have to lionize the guy, he sure as hell had faults and flaws. But the ridiculous venom that's so frequently spewed his way* just smacks of reactionary schoolyard shit-talk. "Oh, you like The Beatles? Yeah, they were untalented hacks." * Btw, I'm not saying you're doing this, @stevensw, or anyone else in this particular thread -- it just reminded me of it. I don't put Gygax on a pedestal, take his word as law, or think he's a superhero, so I can't really speak to that. I just think character assassinating the literal inventor of the thing one claims to have so much passion for is really petty and basically a dick move. Well dammit, now that I've typed the whole thing out, it kind of reads like an answer to a question no one's posing, since there aren't any examples of the kind of thing I'm railing against here! Ah, well, maybe I just posted too soon. I feel better anyway. Now I can sleep peacefully.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 20, 2016 15:25:54 GMT -8
I absolutely get not taking gaming advice from EGG, or any of the 'holy trinity' of Gygax, Arneson, and Wesely. The game they created is very, very different than the games we play today, their descendants. They and their experiences have next to nothing to teach me about running a modern GURPS game. I also don't take PC advice from the designers of the ENIAC, or car advice from Benz. What I don't get, at all, is the reflexive "Gygax? Fuck that piece of shit" attitude I seem to encounter all the time. (The rhetoric never seems directed at the other two, I assume because Gygax was much more outspoken and prolific). Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe it being a pet peeve means I'm more cognizant of it. But, like Hendrix above, it would be like saying "Hendrix? Fuck that poseur -- Stevie Ray all the way." It completely misses the point that there wouldn't be a Stevie Ray without Hendrix. Yes, sure, okay, maybe (maybe) eventually someone else would have invented D&D, and so on down the line. But those hypothetical people didn't -- Gygax actually did it. Wrote it up, mimeographed it, played it, got it out there. I'm not saying we have to lionize the guy, he sure as hell had faults and flaws. But the ridiculous venom that's so frequently spewed his way* just smacks of reactionary schoolyard shit-talk. "Oh, you like The Beatles? Yeah, they were untalented hacks." * Btw, I'm not saying you're doing this, @stevensw, or anyone else in this particular thread -- it just reminded me of it. I don't put Gygax on a pedestal, take his word as law, or think he's a superhero, so I can't really speak to that. I just think character assassinating the literal inventor of the thing one claims to have so much passion for is really petty and basically a dick move. Well dammit, now that I've typed the whole thing out, it kind of reads like an answer to a question no one's posing, since there aren't any examples of the kind of thing I'm railing against here! Ah, well, maybe I just posted too soon. I feel better anyway. Now I can sleep peacefully. I hear you brother . . . I feel exactly the same gall for exactly the same reasons all too often, TBH I just think there are much better things to do than shit on the legacy of people who are dead and gone. It's not like they can defend themselves so it smacks of beating on a soft target . . . hell, Freud got a lot wrong, but also got a lot right and he started the ball rolling allowing more modern therapies, like CBT, to exist - which is a remarkable feat given the context of the times he lived in. Aaron
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Post by ilina on Mar 20, 2016 17:10:59 GMT -8
Even Gary Gygax wasn't against dungeon masters modifying rules or using GM fiat to fit the setting. in Fact, it was Gary that wrote the Original Innkeeper Rule in the 1e DMG meaning yes, you needed at least 1 score of 14 and couldn't have more than 1 score of 6 or lower. I don't understand what this had to do with previous posts... At all. Is this supposed to be some kind of proof that I was wrong and we should all be writing in high Gygaxian? the innkeeper rule was written by Gary Gygax as a means to keep player characters viable in his crunch heavy wargamey RPGs. it was an old and neccessary rule for old school D&D. the very system Gygax Wrote. the age of rolling 3d6 in order, and players needing a security blanket. inspired by wargame roots. i trust Gygax for Wargames as much i trust Square Enix for grandiose and epic storylines.
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mrmanowar
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 74
Preferred Game Systems: Ones that I own.
Currently Playing: AS&SoH, AD&D various editions and Manowar CD's
Currently Running: D&D 5E, AS&SoH (Started!)
Favorite Species of Monkey: The ones that rhyme with donkey
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Post by mrmanowar on Mar 20, 2016 18:05:46 GMT -8
I absolutely get not taking gaming advice from EGG, or any of the 'holy trinity' of Gygax, Arneson, and Wesely. The game they created is very, very different than the games we play today, their descendants. They and their experiences have next to nothing to teach me about running a modern GURPS game. I also don't take PC advice from the designers of the ENIAC, or car advice from Benz. What I don't get, at all, is the reflexive "Gygax? Fuck that piece of shit" attitude I seem to encounter all the time. (The rhetoric never seems directed at the other two, I assume because Gygax was much more outspoken and prolific... My point exactly. You mentioned Dave Wesely. I have been fortunate enough to talk with Dave for a while and he is very nice and offers wonderful explanations on how gaming evolved to get to where it has. I have also been fortunate enough to talk with many of the old guard and game with them. In today's gaming industry we have a plethora of options to choose from, from a quite a span of talented designers. At Frank Mentzer's house party prior to Gary Con a few weeks ago we all hit on this same issue. I met Jason Bulhman and talked to him about Pathfinder. Same goes for Mike Mearls and Chris Perkins on 5E, had a good time talking with them too. Same goes for Joseph Goodman and the DCC staff. Great people, I had fun in the game I played. Same goes for Robert Schwalb when I gamed with him in Shadows of the Demon Lord. I have been fortunate enough to play a lot of games with the creators of these various games and amongst them all there is none of this attitude. Mainly respect for what came before while expanding on it and enjoying new games. At Gary Con this year, yes you had the old Chainmail gamers. You also had PbtA games too. You even had systems being run that some of you never heard of... D6XD6 anyone? All said, why badmouth the creators of a particular genre we love? Some games may not be my cup of tea, but that never stopped me from trying a game and having a beer and great conversation with those who created them. Gary Gygax and the others are in that boat for me. I even met Jeff Perren (co-writer of Chainmail along with Gary multiple times) and he would be like the others...Happy you are gaming and playing games even if it's not theirs. Gary was prolific and opinionated, but he would have played any game with you.. from D&D, to poker and chess to board games, to Castle Zagyg. So says me? No, so says his children and others who knew him well. Gary Con's slogan is "Celebrating a life well played." I say to you all, celebrate a life well played. Play games, whatever ones you like, and be patient in teaching others how to play those games you know that I or others do not.
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Post by squeatus on Mar 20, 2016 20:15:08 GMT -8
Gygax? Fuck that piece of shit My quote is an example of typical Internet research standards. Also, I prefer crossbows, like this one:
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