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Post by ilina on Mar 21, 2016 2:49:30 GMT -8
Reactionary Characters; do they bother you? how do you deal with them?
the Reactionary Character, is expanded from the concept of the revenge character. it is a character created as a reaction to a specific occurence within the game or at the table, even one that has occured multiple times in the past.
the Entire Cleric Class in D&D Started as a Reactionary Class because Gary Gygax was Salty about losing his character to a vampire.
what good comes from reactionary characters? can any good come from reactionary characters?
what reactionary characters have you had at your tables and what phenomena were they built as a reaction to?
Savage Daddy's Wednesday hangout. there was talk about a player who frequently lost characters because they got thrown overboard and lacked the swimming skill, so after so many failures, every future character that player played at that table had to have a d6 in swimming because the player was paranoid about losing a character to drowning. effectively, the option taken was reactionary in nature
at the same time, a player who always plays unarmed combat specialists because she had one too many elder scrolls prison breaks where she had to fight unarmed or with improvised weapons, is a reaction to the trope of prison breaks.
what reactionary habits have you witnessed? what reactionary habits have you developed?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2016 3:04:12 GMT -8
There is nothing wrong with learning from a mistake. You just have to make sure you actually understand the problem. Case in point, my experiance playing WHFRP 2nd. Warhammer fantasy is deadly. Characters are not immune to death in any way. Well my characters kept dying. So at first I tried to become a better bad ass. More armor or a better active defense. Well, that didn't work either. The problem was that no one survives continued conflict in that game. It will grind you down if you insist on throwing yourself against the enemy. I literally survived much better as a pacifist who was unwilling to do anything other than try to defend themselves from the brunt of the damage.
Take the no swimming guy. Was his fault his lack of skill, or his lack of respect for the water? What precautions did he take to not end up in the same predicament? What if his skill isn't enough? Perhaps the water is rough and his skill won't be enough. It's not a bad idea, but ultimately he'd probably be better served by staying out of/away from the water. He could also put on a life jacket (assuming it is setting appropriate) or not wear heavy clothes/armor when he knows he will be near the water.
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Post by chronovore on Mar 27, 2016 17:18:41 GMT -8
ilina, I'd never stopped to think about this concept before, though I have done this too. Only once. Actually it was in one of Stu's GURPS games from college, where one of the other Player Characters was a mage (necromancer, IIRC) with the Megalomaniac disadvantage. In a way, this was SOP for that particular player. He was always sneaky, abusive, and selfish. Wherever the party went, this player would actively seek to accrue power through the most nefarious means. He had min/max'd his mage to have Teleport casting time down to a defensive option. He was largely untouchable. I honestly can't recall how the need for my character change happened -- perhaps my main PC couldn't stand to be around the necromancer any longer -- but the next character I generated for the game was an assassin hired by the Mage's Guild who rightly wanted to nip this particular zombie-making Napoleon in the bud. I built the character around killing this other PC, including a scroll to make the necromancer forget his Teleportation spell. The assassin succeeded. I have since apologized to Stu. Thanks for starting an interesting thread!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2016 21:38:03 GMT -8
ilina , I'd never stopped to think about this concept before, though I have done this too. Only once. Actually it was in one of Stu's GURPS games from college, where one of the other Player Characters was a mage (necromancer, IIRC) with the Megalomaniac disadvantage. In a way, this was SOP for that particular player. He was always sneaky, abusive, and selfish. Wherever the party went, this player would actively seek to accrue power through the most nefarious means. He had min/max'd his mage to have Teleport casting time down to a defensive option. He was largely untouchable. I honestly can't recall how the need for my character change happened -- perhaps my main PC couldn't stand to be around the necromancer any longer -- but the next character I generated for the game was an assassin hired by the Mage's Guild who rightly wanted to nip this particular zombie-making Napoleon in the bud. I built the character around killing this other PC, including a scroll to make the necromancer forget his Teleportation spell. The assassin succeeded. I have since apologized to Stu. Thanks for starting an interesting thread! Seems like Stu must have been in on the plan, so I don't know why you would have to apologize to him. The other player on the other hand...
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Post by chronovore on Mar 29, 2016 0:03:05 GMT -8
At the time, he knew what I was going to try, but neither of us knew if it would be successful. I had also cheesily metagamed by giving my assassin knowledge of the target, "passed down to you by your patron, the Mage's Guild."
Years later it was still bothering me that I had pulled such a disruptive move in another GM's campaign, so I apologized. It turns out Stu had conflated that incident with another one where Bill had played an assassin who had also taken out that SAME player's annoying character. So, hey. Maybe it was a leitmotif from Stu's GURPS games.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 31, 2016 12:00:23 GMT -8
the Entire Cleric Class in D&D Started as a Reactionary Class because Gary Gygax was Salty about losing his character to a vampire. That's NOT how it happened: Bishop Carr - First D&D ClericMisquote history, fine; misquote history to have a random (and wholly unnecessary) dig at the personal character of a dead man you never met is basically pretty shitty. Aaron
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 14:14:05 GMT -8
the Entire Cleric Class in D&D Started as a Reactionary Class because Gary Gygax was Salty about losing his character to a vampire. That's NOT how it happened: Bishop Carr - First D&D ClericMisquote history, fine; misquote history to have a random (and wholly unnecessary) dig at the personal character of a dead man you never met is basically pretty shitty. Aaron Umm.. the link you posted doesn't disagree with her? It says it was introduced as a balance for the vampire player. Doesn't really mention if Gary's character was affected at all.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 31, 2016 15:22:49 GMT -8
That's NOT how it happened: Bishop Carr - First D&D ClericMisquote history, fine; misquote history to have a random (and wholly unnecessary) dig at the personal character of a dead man you never met is basically pretty shitty. Aaron Umm.. the link you posted doesn't disagree with her? It says it was introduced as a balance for the vampire player. Doesn't really mention if Gary's character was affected at all. Except it had nothing to do with Gygax being "Salty" about anything because Gygax didn't create the class . . . the theme of recent posts about Gygax on this forum (across several threads) seem more intent of casting aspersions on his character, as a person, and laying at his doorstep the entirety of blame for the real or imagined ill's of RPG's at their beginning than addressing the facts at hand. If you didn't like the guy, fine . . . but being snide about him, as a person, when he's fucking dead and unable to defend himself is just plain mean spirited. FFS on Rememberance Day and ANZAC Day we now honor the Dead from both sides of the various conflicts . . . yet in a niche hobby like ours we seem to prefer picking over the corpses of it's founders and discrediting them for being normally flawed human-beings. Aaron
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 15:28:54 GMT -8
Umm.. the link you posted doesn't disagree with her? It says it was introduced as a balance for the vampire player. Doesn't really mention if Gary's character was affected at all. Except it had nothing to do with Gygax being "Salty" about anything because Gygax didn't create the class . . . the theme of recent posts about Gygax on this forum (across several threads) seem more intent of casting aspersions on his character, as a person, and laying at his doorstep the entirety of blame for the real or imagined ill's of RPG's at their beginning than addressing the facts at hand. If you didn't like the guy, fine . . . but being snide about him, as a person, when he's fucking dead and unable to defend himself is just plain mean spirited. FFS on Rememberance Day and ANZAC Day we now honor the Dead from both sides of the various conflicts . . . yet in a niche hobby like ours we seem to prefer picking over the corpses of it's founders and discrediting them for being normally flawed human-beings. Aaron I have no idea who is correct. What I will point out is that someone being pissy could cause someone else to make a solution. I wasn't there, nor do I really care. You do seem to though. So maybe when refuting claims it would be worthwhile to find one that actually supports your argument? I imagine that there is no such definitive source. Even if Gary was alive and we could ask him, his version might be distorted. At any rate, it might be more fruitful to ask for some kind of source that supports her version rather than seeking counter evidence which might not exist. Note: Nowhere did she claim Gygax created the cleric.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 31, 2016 15:50:28 GMT -8
Except it had nothing to do with Gygax being "Salty" about anything because Gygax didn't create the class . . . the theme of recent posts about Gygax on this forum (across several threads) seem more intent of casting aspersions on his character, as a person, and laying at his doorstep the entirety of blame for the real or imagined ill's of RPG's at their beginning than addressing the facts at hand. If you didn't like the guy, fine . . . but being snide about him, as a person, when he's fucking dead and unable to defend himself is just plain mean spirited. FFS on Rememberance Day and ANZAC Day we now honor the Dead from both sides of the various conflicts . . . yet in a niche hobby like ours we seem to prefer picking over the corpses of it's founders and discrediting them for being normally flawed human-beings. Aaron I have no idea who is correct. What I will point out is that someone being pissy could cause someone else to make a solution. I wasn't there, nor do I really care. You do seem to though. So maybe when refuting claims it would be worthwhile to find one that actually supports your argument? I imagine that there is no such definitive source. Even if Gary was alive and we could ask him, his version might be distorted. At any rate, it might be more fruitful to ask for some kind of source that supports her version rather than seeking counter evidence which might not exist. Note: Nowhere did she claim Gygax created the cleric. Read 'Of Dice and Men', therein is a well researched account of the Cleric's origins that correlates well with the account given in the link above. I'd cut and paste the chapter but the glue tends to fuck up the keyboard and I can't be trusted with sharp objects, plus I don't think I can post an entire chapter of a book, wholesale, without violating some form of copyright. Aaron
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 15:53:44 GMT -8
Kainguru Asking me to read and possibly obtain the materials to read? Impossibru! On a more serious note, I really don't care enough to look into it.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 31, 2016 16:06:10 GMT -8
Kainguru Asking me to read and possibly obtain the materials to read? Impossibru! On a more serious note, I really don't care enough to look into it. Fair enough, all I've asked is tiny token of respect for a guy that's dead . . . I would imagine that would go so far as asking people to check some facts a little more rigorously before painting him as some sort of socially dysfunctional arsehole. He may very well have been a socially dysfunctional areshole in life, I'll never know, but at least limit those accounts to actual verifiable accounts of arseholery rather than speculative conjecture Aaron
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Post by ilina on Mar 31, 2016 16:43:34 GMT -8
the Cleric was created as a Revenge/Reactionary Class. people that create Reactionary classes, usually tend to be Salty at the time they make the class. it is a common pattern. so i kind of assumed Gygax was Salty and either made the cleric or had somebody make the class that became the cleric. there is nothing wrong with getting Salty, humans get Salty all the time. in fact, i think it paints Gygax in a more realistic light that the cleric was created as a revenge class in an episode of Saltiness. we shouldn't cover up the flaws of our favorite designers, our flaws make us beleivable. i probably wouldn't be the same if i wasn't a short statured and mute little girl with maturity issues. i just refuse to accept, that because somebody is dead. even if he started the hobby, that we should place him on a Golden Altar as an infallible god.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 17:00:52 GMT -8
the Cleric was created as a Revenge/Reactionary Class. people that create Reactionary classes, usually tend to be Salty at the time they make the class. it is a common pattern. so i kind of assumed Gygax was Salty and either made the cleric or had somebody make the class that became the cleric. there is nothing wrong with getting Salty, humans get Salty all the time. in fact, i think it paints Gygax in a more realistic light that the cleric was created as a revenge class in an episode of Saltiness. we shouldn't cover up the flaws of our favorite designers, our flaws make us beleivable. i probably wouldn't be the same if i wasn't a short statured and mute little girl with maturity issues. i just refuse to accept, that because somebody is dead. even if he started the hobby, that we should place him on a Golden Altar as an infallible god. Am I the only one who is pretty sure Ilina is a 300lb neckbeard? Never before have I heard one person describe themselves so often. Unless you are Chris Hansen... That's an option too. Chris Hansen, catch us, you will not. *Insert yoda laugh*
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Post by ilina on Mar 31, 2016 17:40:15 GMT -8
the Cleric was created as a Revenge/Reactionary Class. people that create Reactionary classes, usually tend to be Salty at the time they make the class. it is a common pattern. so i kind of assumed Gygax was Salty and either made the cleric or had somebody make the class that became the cleric. there is nothing wrong with getting Salty, humans get Salty all the time. in fact, i think it paints Gygax in a more realistic light that the cleric was created as a revenge class in an episode of Saltiness. we shouldn't cover up the flaws of our favorite designers, our flaws make us beleivable. i probably wouldn't be the same if i wasn't a short statured and mute little girl with maturity issues. i just refuse to accept, that because somebody is dead. even if he started the hobby, that we should place him on a Golden Altar as an infallible god. Am I the only one who is pretty sure Ilina is a 300lb neckbeard? Never before have I heard one person describe themselves so often. Unless you are Chris Hansen... That's an option too. Chris Hansen, catch us, you will not. *Insert yoda laugh* i am neither of those 2 things. i'm just really defensive about my figure.
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