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Post by ilina on Mar 27, 2016 19:56:42 GMT -8
you are Running a game. players are making in character decisions that influence their reputations and standings within the world. would you actually be willing to take those player decisions into consideration? or do you see it as a dick move? i know i discussed many similar topics before. but the question isn't whether or not you approve the decision, which can be anything from an in character choice to a metagame decision such as the character's choice of species or flaws. how do you fairly react to said choices?
say you have a player who played an Ogre Fighter because they wanted to be a big and beefy tank. and you know, the world has a bridge across a specific popular river to a specific trading settlement. well, most likely a bridge system and for larger hauls, you have an expensive ferry for carrying cargo. and you know the Bridge cannot carry more than basically a human or orc trader or few. do you magically retcon the bridge so the ogre can cross it and enjoy himself? do you have it collapse the moment the ogre tries to cross it? or do you have NPCs tell the Ogre that he would have to take the Next Cargo Ferry because the Bridge can't carry a 10 foot tall 10 foot wide 5,000 pound ogre?
do you magically make cave entrances larger to accommodate said ogre? or do you force them to actually have to Squeeze their way inside and take penalties for fighting in tight spaces?
i would actually answer the first question with the latter 2 and the second with the latter. i will not Retcon the bridge to carry the ogre and i will not make the cave entrances magically bigger. in fact, being forced to squeeze into the cave with penalties, the bridge collapsing under the ogre's weight, or being told to wait for the next cargo ferry across the river, are stuff i see as fair and legitimate consequences for playing an ogre. the drawbacks of the massive size, are intended to balance the strength of massive melee damage.
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Post by Kenigma23 on Mar 27, 2016 20:31:33 GMT -8
Are you saying that the players meta-gaming? Making choices that are incongruent with the world their characters are inhabiting? Your opening paragraph was hard for me to parse… I’m assuming based on the context this is the case, if I’m answering the wrong question…. Oops! My handling of the issues you describe first have to be qualified as follows…. • Are Ogres a playable race?o If no, everything else is irrelevant, play another race o If yes… • Does the world accommodate Ogres?
o If no… Does the Ogre’s player understand (and is OK with) playing an “over-sized” creature that will have issues interacting with aspects of the world? o If yes… • Is the GM/party OK with this or is it going to create issues with play?
o If no… then see “play another race” o If they are then…. Bridge:
If the party is OK with the giant Ogre having to have accommodations then I’d say he has to wait for the ferry, it could be an amusing bit of RP play as the party has to figure out how to get 2.5 tons of ogre over a river…. If this is something that is just going to consternate everyone and eat up precious game time then the bridge holds the ogre on to the plot. Entrance sizes:
Will this prevent the Ogre player from even being in large portions of the game? Is squeezing into the spot going to be a regular thing where the Ogre is suffering penalties constantly or is it just one instance where “well big guy, this is just a consequence of you being so darn big?” If it is going to make the player miserable then I would make the entrances large enough… or maybe the big beast just “makes” a large hole because he is so strong. There is an opportunity for some fun RP and a little humor with it, but again if it stymies the game I’d say hand wave it and move on.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2016 21:43:04 GMT -8
It seems passive aggressive to allow a concept and penalize it constantly without warning the player first. I personally would not allow a character so large as to keep the, out of the story. It might be tight, but they must be able to fit. My reasoning? Doing nothing while the group goes on without you sucks. Penalties spotlight your character while total restriction sidelines it.
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 27, 2016 21:57:54 GMT -8
Well, I'm going to start with a nittish picking....
Your ogre is insanely proportioned and so morbidly obese that it's unlikely that he's not dead already.
The reason that a 5-6 foot tall human takes up a full 5 foot square is not because they are five feet wide, but because people need room to move, even when standing still. Watch your taller friends... We sway.
As to the weight... At the 8 to 10 foot height range, you're looking at someone who if reasonably fit, well muscled, and broadly built; will be clocking in at the 900-1200 lb range.
So, your bridge was apparently built exclusively for foot traffic, and never was consideration given as to wagons or mounted troops, either of which could easily equal or out weigh your ogre...
Next, unless your dungeons will be populated exclusively with humanoid sized, or smaller, opponents.... Then how did those larger critters get into said dungeon if the entrance won't fit them?
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Mar 27, 2016 22:29:55 GMT -8
I agree with Ayslyn, these design decisions seem to be based specially to piss the Ogre off. Also when a community builds a bridge, it's usually to get heavy loads, troops across a river, to replace a ferry.
But if they were in a pre-published scenario, where the author hadn't considered an ogre playing then: The Bridge, I'd most likely Retcon, I want to get the players into the community for an adventure I'd planned. Unless there was a fun story about the bridge to play then it's just a barrier to narrative. At some future point though, I might build a scene with a really flimsy rope bridge over a canyon, just to make it a story element for the ogre to deal with.
The cave I might leave in place, after all getting into small places is why parties employ hobbits isn't it?
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Post by Kenigma23 on Mar 28, 2016 7:02:06 GMT -8
So you fredrix and ayslyn you are of the opinion this is a clear case of Ogre discrimination?
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 28, 2016 8:35:57 GMT -8
#ogrelivesmatter
#humanprivilege
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Post by Kenigma23 on Mar 28, 2016 10:40:52 GMT -8
#ogrelivesmatter #humanprivilege #IStandWithOgres
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Mar 28, 2016 10:51:04 GMT -8
Je suis Ogre
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 28, 2016 11:37:16 GMT -8
If you really want to show the prejudice against ogres, have the innkeeper refuse to rent him a room, instead insisting he sleep in the barn... But charge him full price. In fact, all of the civ-normative people charge him extra money.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 14:45:54 GMT -8
Kenigma23 has a well thought out and succinct answer. If the Ogre was allowed and knows full well that being an ogre will be complicated then plenty of RP opportunities abound. I wouldn't make access the biggest issue, as that can get nitpicky, but there should still be some complications as mentioned above (rooms for rent, damage to chairs, consonantly broke as you try to feed the brute) played out for laughs and for ambiance. The fun opportunitycan be the plot points and hooks a GM can use. children go missing in the village? Guess who is going to be the first one blamed? Looks like the adventurers have to clear his name again. Evil wizard amassing an army? Who may mistakenly be contacted? Time to bust up someone's dastardly machinations. Outsiders like Ogres can be useful as long as they are used sparingly and both player and group are aware of the issues inherent in having an outsider in your group.
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Post by ilina on Mar 28, 2016 17:03:57 GMT -8
the ogre is an example i had to deal with as a player. because the Ogre fighter i worked alongside of, literally outclassed every martially inclined player character so badly that nobody could deal respectable damage to the opposition, because fights were tailored towards soaking the ogre's damage. i made the mistake of playing a Nymph assassin and being considered useless because every level appropriate foe was slaughtered by the ogre before the assassin stood a chance of contributing to a fight. i had to intentionally remind the GM of situations that put the ogre at a disadvantage, just to have a chance to get off maybe a sneak attack before the Ogre one shot everything. and the ogre fighter was a powergamer too.
i had to as a player, bring things up OOC, because the rest of the group, like myself, were upset that the ogre was wrecking combat encounters and nobody else got to do anything in a fight. the ogre didn't even roleplay, he just wrecked stuff in combat because he was the ultimate melee monstrosity.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 28, 2016 18:29:36 GMT -8
the ogre is an example i had to deal with as a player. because the Ogre fighter i worked alongside of, literally outclassed every martially inclined player character so badly that nobody could deal respectable damage to the opposition, because fights were tailored towards soaking the ogre's damage. i made the mistake of playing a Nymph assassin and being considered useless because every level appropriate foe was slaughtered by the ogre before the assassin stood a chance of contributing to a fight. i had to intentionally remind the GM of situations that put the ogre at a disadvantage, just to have a chance to get off maybe a sneak attack before the Ogre one shot everything. and the ogre fighter was a powergamer too. i had to as a player, bring things up OOC, because the rest of the group, like myself, were upset that the ogre was wrecking combat encounters and nobody else got to do anything in a fight. the ogre didn't even roleplay, he just wrecked stuff in combat because he was the ultimate melee monstrosity. I sound like a broken record here, but that seems like an issue that would arise regardless of what character the player being referred to was playing.
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Post by ilina on Mar 28, 2016 18:37:46 GMT -8
the ogre is an example i had to deal with as a player. because the Ogre fighter i worked alongside of, literally outclassed every martially inclined player character so badly that nobody could deal respectable damage to the opposition, because fights were tailored towards soaking the ogre's damage. i made the mistake of playing a Nymph assassin and being considered useless because every level appropriate foe was slaughtered by the ogre before the assassin stood a chance of contributing to a fight. i had to intentionally remind the GM of situations that put the ogre at a disadvantage, just to have a chance to get off maybe a sneak attack before the Ogre one shot everything. and the ogre fighter was a powergamer too. i had to as a player, bring things up OOC, because the rest of the group, like myself, were upset that the ogre was wrecking combat encounters and nobody else got to do anything in a fight. the ogre didn't even roleplay, he just wrecked stuff in combat because he was the ultimate melee monstrosity. I sound like a broken record here, but that seems like an issue that would arise regardless of what character the player being referred to was playing. the worst part, is the ogre got away with everything free of negative consequences, because NPCs died before information could spread. but it definitely sounds more like a problem with the player than the fact it was an ogre character. i get a lot of issues in IRL groups, especially when somebody asks to make an obvious choice to play a thinly lensed powergamer character, like an Ogre Fighter or a Nymph Druid, Shaman or Sorcerer.
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Post by Kenigma23 on Mar 28, 2016 19:42:14 GMT -8
ilina what you’re describing now is either a failure in communication or a failure in GMing… possibly both. If the tone and type of the game was set up properly, i.e. “lets’ go OP” and other players chose to make a Bard then the mistake is those players. If the rest of the players wanted to play something other than a power fantasy game they should have said so. Those are failures in communication. If the GM allowed this nonsense with no intent of balancing= the game, which is what you describe, then that is just bad GMing. First, as a GM I would probably never allow something so OP if the rest of players were not on board (read my first post in this thread). If I did allow it then I’d have a list of ways to offset the ogre. Some you mention in your initial post, more mentioned by others. Of the top of my head…. An enemy that is intangible, thus the ogre is unable to strike A magic user levitates the ogre… can’t hit anything if you can’t move. Sleep spell Drugged weapons The list goes on…. Were I you I would discuss with the other players the issues, then talk (not confront) with the GM about them and explain the issues. If the GM isn’t interested or won’t hear it, then you either need to make the best of it or bow out of the game. I think others have said this to you before, but I’ll reiterate it here, it sounds like the group you play with and the way you want to play don’t mix and they aren’t going to. You need to either make your peace with it or fine another group. I realize that may be easier said than done, but if you’re really not having a good time…. Why put up with it?
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