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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2016 3:19:13 GMT -8
Every system has its faults. For how awesome hero system is, it is a complex toolkit that is not accessible to a fledgling GM. While Hero system may not be perfect for you or your group I would like to point out that it has gone through multiple editions of actual improvements to the game. I don't suspect that a 7th edition of Hero would ignore a glaring fault of its predecessor (of which I know of none).
In my eyes hero is a sucess at a cost. The system performs well, but is complex or gargantuan. Like any good success at a cost, we really feel the sting of the cost. On the other side of the spectrum we have D&D. While hero succeeds at being a good system, D&D succeeds in sales and popularity at the cost of quality of its system. So how can we learn from both of these systems in the creation of new systems that are better and not just newer? First off we need to learn that a single approach is not preferable or profitable.
Hero system is essentially a game designers toolkit, not a game. While the promise of being able to do anything is nice, most of us aren't game developers. It's a good thing too, because hero system as a toolkit is the teaching a man to fish solution. Once we have it we don't need to pay a fisherman to catch us fish. That means Steve Long (the guy behind hero) can't make money selling us those fish (specific systems). His only saving grace is we are too lazy to do the work when we can pay him to do it for us.
Modern D&D works on smaller scale then hero. It isn't trying to accomplish everything. Where it fails is that it isn't built on solid mechanics that can be parlayed into other games. Nostalgia is cool and all, but won't fly where people don't have fond memories of it. Instead D&D can only produce supplements for a single game that will eventually destroy it to the point that a new edition is needed. Taking both lessons together we can see a path forward.
The golden ticket is the model of games like Cortex+. Cortex+ has a solid system, but is more interested in selling you permutations (individual games) than the model for those permutations. Each game uses a version of the rules that is tweaked for that games purpose but maintains certain system easentialls. Like D20, you know what you are getting with Cortex+. You know that if you like the setting and the overall system you have a safe buy. Unlike D&D, Margaret Weis Productions (the makers of cortex+) doesn't need to ruin its titles with an over saturation of supplements.
It is my estimation that the reason Powered By the Apocalypse has taken off is that it follows the model I laid out above and allows outsiders to produce content. While Cortex+ isn't an unknown, the fact that a single company creates its content limits its offerings. While I personally am not a fan of the system behind PbtA games, I see a bright future for them. In the end I see Indy games overtaking conventional ones because of the consistency (as applied to expectations) and variety (as applied to settings) they offer.
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Post by ilina on Apr 2, 2016 3:58:23 GMT -8
"Oniichan!" *the small statured and youthful Woman cheers in deceptively innocent and naive sounding tone.*
"i agree so much with this!" *Ilina Glomps the OP, tackling and hugging him*
"D&D, i agree, has to Saturate the market if it wants to keep up with other RPGs. in fact, that is Hasbro's general Gimmick, Hasbro has a habit of Flooding the Market with Dozens of cheaply made options sold at inflated cost, hoping somebody would purchase a handful of them, i wouldn't put it past them to make a New D&D Animated Series just to sell their rulebooks for 6th or even 7th Edition"
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Apr 2, 2016 4:19:35 GMT -8
Sorry, but no. As much as I like PbtA games, they're never going to beat Hasbro and D&D for two big reasons.
1) D&D is so synonymous with the pen and paper RPG hobby that "D&D" and "RPG" might as well be interchangeable terms for new players. D&D is a household name and is still the largest gateway game into the hobby.
2) Each PbtA game is made by an individual, or at the very most, a handful of people. There is no unified organization producing PbtA games; just a group of creators who happen to like the game's framework.
PbtA games will never overtake D&D in popularity, profitability, or recognition simply because D&D has Hasbro behind it. This has practically nothing to do with rule sets and everything to do with marketing and promotion.
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Post by lowkeyoh on Apr 2, 2016 9:49:28 GMT -8
I'm with HyveMynd on this. It's hard to keep perspective because of how deep into the hobby we all are. The fact we are talking about RPGs on a forum for a podcast about RPGs means were in a little deeper than the average game and a lot deeper than your average layman. The fact is that pop culture pushes D&D because it has name recognition. This in turn gets new players into the hobby and keeps the idea of role-playing = D&D in the eyes of the masses
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Post by Probie Tim on Apr 2, 2016 16:26:37 GMT -8
D&D is so synonymous with the pen and paper RPG hobby that "D&D" and "RPG" might as well be interchangeable terms for new players. So much this. Here's almost every conversation I've ever had with non-gamers about the hobby: Me: "Yay, it's game night!" Non-gamer: "Fun! Poker? Monopoly?" Me: "Nah. RPGs, role-playing games." NG: "Um..." Me: "Dungeons & Dragons?" NG: "OH! Yeah, gotcha."
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Apr 2, 2016 20:54:08 GMT -8
How often when people introduce a new game, especially to relatively new gamers, do they say "It's like D&D but with (changes)"?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2016 21:37:26 GMT -8
Is Ford the only auto maker you know of? Once upon a time almost no one had cars. Then Ford came along with its assembly line and cars began popping up everywhere. Others followed suit and many companies were bought out or went under to get to where we are today. So is Ford the only car brand non-drivers know about?
RPG gaming is a young hobby, and not as popular as cars. I don't think it will happen as quickly, but we are likely to see the same trends play out. It's happening in other areas of gaming as well. Settlers of Catan can be bought at Target. Not a specialty store, a big box store. Where once only games like monopoly and Yahtzee sat on the shelves there are now games that would have been considered off the beaten path.
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Apr 2, 2016 22:25:42 GMT -8
Settlers of Catan can be bought at Target. Know what else you'll probably find at Target? Dungeons and Dragons stuff including 4th or 5th edition rulebooks, the boardgames, paperback novels, the (shitty) movies on DVD, and the animated series on DVD. Know what you won't find? PbtA games. In fact, go ask a Target employee " Do you have any Dungeons and Dragons stuff?" and they'll either point you in the right direction or tell you they don't have it. But I'll bet you they'll at least know what you're talking about. You can't do that with any other roleplaying game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2016 22:51:34 GMT -8
Settlers of Catan can be bought at Target. Know what else you'll probably find at Target? Dungeons and Dragons stuff including 4th or 5th edition rulebooks, the boardgames, paperback novels, the (shitty) movies on DVD, and the animated series on DVD. Know what you won't find? PbtA games. In fact, go ask a Target employee " Do you have any Dungeons and Dragons stuff?" and they'll either point you in the right direction or tell you they don't have it. But I'll bet you they'll at least know what you're talking about. You can't do that with any other roleplaying game. Yet. Patience Eago. ...Yes, you are now a parrot in a Disney movie whose name I'm sure I misspelled. I really wanted to write more than two words, which is how we ended up here.
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Post by Probie Tim on Apr 3, 2016 8:34:17 GMT -8
I believe it's Iago. Even so, the "industry" is moving away from printed books with regular distribution as the de-facto model for RPGs. The only companies which can afford to show up in Targets and what-have-yous are companies that have the backing of giants like Hasbro (like WotC). Why do you think Kickstarter and DriveThruRPG have become such staples in this "industry"? It's because an RPG like PbtA - or Fudge, or Fate, or any more these days, V:tM - can't profit through the "make a bunch of product, get it into distribution, warehouse the stock until it's ordered" model. Which is what has to happen to become a regular name in this... Wal-Mart world. *shrug*
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Post by ayslyn on Apr 3, 2016 9:58:34 GMT -8
Iago is correct, Tim. Same as the character from Othello.
Also, Gaming is not that young a hobby.
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Post by Kainguru on Apr 3, 2016 10:57:18 GMT -8
I'll point out that it was basically pursuit of that Wal-Mart style market model that killed TSR. When taken over by the, then still independent, WoTC they inherited whole warehouses of unsold, undistributed, stock - lots of Dragon Dice especially. Aaron
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Post by Probie Tim on Apr 3, 2016 11:16:37 GMT -8
Such a shame, too... Dragon Dice is a great game. I still have... hundreds of Dragon Dice. I know that a company called SFR bought the Dragon Dice IP and has been making new dice and keeping the game updated, but, not much has happened on the "wider world than the SFR website and existing Dragon Dice grognards" front.
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Post by Kainguru on Apr 3, 2016 13:13:20 GMT -8
I still have... hundreds of Dragon Dice. So did TSR Aaron PS: *sigh* sometimes I miss the old TSR brand . . . it may have been shitty towards the end but at least it was what it was, a game company.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Apr 3, 2016 13:35:28 GMT -8
It's a lovely idea, but the truth is, any new Apocalypse release is a niche of a niche of a niche. Table-top RPGs had their "boom" years ago, and now the TRPG market is mature, and if not shrinking, only growing in an incredibly minor organic way. Say RPG to a young person, of the age I was when I started with D&D, today and the best you can hope for is they think you are talking about a jRPG video-game.
Meanwhile an area of gaming that IS having a boom is boardgames. I was at a city games festival yesterday, Video games, mobile games and boardgames were all represented There were cosplay, Escape rooms, and commercialised (and great fun) foam-sword fighting too. I asked the organisers why no TRPGs? They take too long was his reply. I also visited the local FLGS, a sad a dusty musty place that smelt like the dreariest second-hand bookstore. They were actually still trying to sell a copy of the old Atlas edition of Feng Shui as new! I bet no new gamers are joining the hobby in that city! (Meanwhile I also met the bloke who wrote the Dr Who RPG (and runs RPG a day) in his day job as a clerk in the city's Movie andTV related tat store.)
Truth is, we NEED Hasbro to remain interested in D&D, and for it to be a success, because it's the ONLY gateway drug we have to get young people into the hobby and grow it.
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