Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 0:53:08 GMT -8
Being not the greatest player has more to do with being new than being an MMO player. Certain people are exposed to improv and acting and take to the game more quickly in a roleplaying sense, but many take time to become confident. That said, I lay this problem of unresponsive players at the feet of the GM. I do so because a player did respond and he didn't do shit with it. While he never said the words "No, that doesn't work", he sure didn't react and improv a scene that would move the game forward or open new avenues of investigation. Here is what could have happened:
"You ask around about your sister the better part of the day and return home without any leads to find an envelope taped to your front door."
Maybe there is another investigator who knows something and is leaving instructions to meet him in the park later. It could be from the people who took his sister warning him to stop looking before something bad happens. It could be anything as long as it opens a new avenue of investigation or leads into a new scene. Another option could be:
"While asking around you notice missing person flyers about town. All of them are girls of your sisters age with the same vital statistics. Blonde hair, blue eyes, 100lbs. Last seen leaving for school."
Now the player has other NPCs he can contact or maybe take his findings to the cops or FBI. The important takeaway is that you have new players trying to interact and you need to reach across the isle and make it happen. New players are like babies. You can't expect their first words to be in full sentence form. Their ideas are likely to be crude, but they need to produce results. You want to positively reward them for taking any initiative instead of sitting around waiting for someone else to talk or a gold question mark to appear over an npcs head.
The entire incompatible GMing style thing is an excuse, ditch it. Use an Aspiration type system (NWoD 2nd ed) to get your players to make short and long term goals they can act on. Tie their rewards to working towards these goals (nothing motivates so much as XP). Set time aside to work with the players on these each session and ask what they are planning to do to work towards them. Being proactive as a player takes prep if you haven't learned to be quick on your feet yet. Working with them to have their player prep done will net you results instead of blank stares when you ask what they want to do.
Also, you should try to start investigations with multiple clues or scenes. His sister was kidnapped, so was there someone who saw her taken? What about a dropped phone or maybe something odd she mentioned that only now stands out? Has there been a ransome note or call? Any line of investigation could go cold, having multiple clues gives the player more ways to proceed without you having to make everything he tries a success. I'd still err on the side of making his attempts work.
|
|
|
Post by The Northman on Apr 10, 2016 0:34:41 GMT -8
Tim's game is still rocking, sans Tim. Most of what he hoped for is happening, with character interactions making up a large majority of posts and story lines, and a few combats happening over the course of the 8 months it's been going. Currently about 10 active players and the storyteller.
|
|
|
Post by Probie Tim on Apr 10, 2016 15:42:13 GMT -8
Yeah, wow, I just finished listening to this episode. Embargo indeed, Stu Venable. LA by Fire is still running and, when last I looked, is running strong. When I no longer had the time to run the game I continued running it until I found someone to take it over, and that person has been doing a bang-up job. But I'm still the site administrator, and the new ST and I touch base now and again over forum and game issues. At some point I'll get back into the game - probably as a co-GM, now that the new ST has been doing such a good job - and I hope that point will be soon. But it is, in fact, still running.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Apr 10, 2016 20:11:31 GMT -8
Thanks for the shout out, gina! I was surprised at the huge number of responses I got and did have to turn people away unfortunately. Once I get better at managing a PbP game I may open up more slots if people are still interested. As for Manuel's passive player problem, I think he should have an out-of-character talk with them all. Just straight up tell them that he'd like everyone to be more proactive and that there aren't any wrong moves. Much like Stu Venable did in his Vampire game. It may or may not work, but as all these players are fairly new to the pen & paper hobby, they may not know what's expected of them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 22:00:31 GMT -8
Thanks for the shout out, gina ! I was surprised at the huge number of responses I got and did have to turn people away unfortunately. Once I get better at managing a PbP game I may open up more slots if people are still interested. As for Manuel's passive player problem, I think he should have an out-of-character talk with them all. Just straight up tell them that he'd like everyone to be more proactive and that there aren't any wrong moves. Much like Stu Venable did in his Vampire game. It may or may not work, but as all these players are fairly new to the pen & paper hobby, they may not know what's expected of them. It won't work because there are wrong moves or rather moves that aren't proactive enough. His players are trying and he is making the target too far away for them to hit. You don't stick a first time shooter at 1000 yards and expect them to hit. You don't ask a first time roleplayers to be hyper proactive out of the gate. People need goals they can achieve, not some needy GM berating them for their inexperience. These players aren't paralyzed because every option seems bad. They are going through the standard newbie experiance of becoming comfortable in front of a table full of people. They don't need a critique, they need encouragement. If the GM is unwilling to run with and be excited about the things they do in game, he might as well disband and find a group that is already experienced.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Apr 11, 2016 1:07:32 GMT -8
As for Manuel's passive player problem, I think he should have an out-of-character talk with them all. Just straight up tell them that he'd like everyone to be more proactive and that there aren't any wrong moves. Much like Stu Venable did in his Vampire game. It may or may not work, but as all these players are fairly new to the pen & paper hobby, they may not know what's expected of them. Absolutely, RPG's may be games but they have that fabulous benefit of simply being able to talk to each other - out of game - to fix something that may not be working well. Too many times people struggle to find 'in game' fixes - some of which border on attempts at behaviour modification - when all that really needs to be done is to say 'Hey, dudes . . .'. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Skinner et al and operant conditioning but there is a time and place, think of it as a PC problem: an application keeps crashing, now you could spend hours trying to recover from the crash or finding the other running process that's conflicting or you could simply try 'turning it off and on again' with a hard reboot to clear the system memory and cache and carry on again . . . The players behind the characters are right there and no one is going to punish you for talking to them about the game outside of the game . . . metagaming (whatever that really is) can be a force for good Aaron
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 2:12:51 GMT -8
As for Manuel's passive player problem, I think he should have an out-of-character talk with them all. Just straight up tell them that he'd like everyone to be more proactive and that there aren't any wrong moves. Much like Stu Venable did in his Vampire game. It may or may not work, but as all these players are fairly new to the pen & paper hobby, they may not know what's expected of them. Absolutely, RPG's may be games but they have that fabulous benefit of simply being able to talk to each other - out of game - to fix something that may not be working well. Too many times people struggle to find 'in game' fixes - some of which border on attempts at behaviour modification - when all that really needs to be done is to say 'Hey, dudes . . .'. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Skinner et al and operant conditioning but there is a time and place, think of it as a PC problem: an application keeps crashing, now you could spend hours trying to recover from the crash or finding the other running process that's conflicting or you could simply try 'turning it off and on again' with a hard reboot to clear the system memory and cache and carry on again . . . The players behind the characters are right there and no one is going to punish you for talking to them about the game outside of the game . . . metagaming (whatever that really is) can be a force for good Aaron This reminds me of people who think they can change their spouses. I know it's not working like I thought, but they love me, so if I ask them they will change! Uh huh. If that worked then they would have done it from the first time he asked them to be proactive. Instead we are in the realm of the victim who swears that they promise this was the last time. Talking is great at fixing problems that crop up and need to be spotlighted so someone knows that it is an issue or bothering others. It won't fix a problem that stems from a lack of skill or experiance. Telling someone to play better does not accomplish that goal. Unless you are providing them with strategies and help in this conversation, you will acomplish only making the players feel more incompetent. I've been in a game that had this exact problem. We talked till everyone was blue in the face and it solved little. The issue we all had is that our characters weren't involved in anything and the GM was waiting on us to provide the story. As a GM, you want to be the proverbial mentos in the Diet Coke. Your story provides the area for the players to latch on and get proactive. The more places you present for your players to latch on to the more they will get involved. You are the catalyst. Being that catalyst takes prep and the ability to say yes when your players show interest. The more you shut the down the less they will do.
|
|
|
Post by uselesstriviaman on Apr 11, 2016 4:51:13 GMT -8
I dunno if Manuel is on the forums, but I'm going to hazard a guess based on my own anecdotal experience:
Manuel, are you and your group in the US military? From your brief description, it sounds very much like my own active duty gaming experiences. Some of my best - and worst - gaming stories came from barracks games.
|
|
|
HJRP 1616
Apr 11, 2016 6:03:10 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by joecrak on Apr 11, 2016 6:03:10 GMT -8
I haven't finished the episode, but they finished reading Manuel's email, and i just want to know what game he's ruunning?
Post-Apocalyptic. There's a driver. Mad Maxish.
Sounds like he should be running Apocalypse World, and constantly ask the players leading questions, and avoid yes or no questions at all costs.
|
|
|
Post by evilgingerdm on Apr 11, 2016 7:04:47 GMT -8
As far as podcasts go, I Really Enjoy The Campaign Podcast ( oneshotpodcast.com/category/campaign/ ) They do a series of 1 shots, but their Star Wars Series IS amazing, def. worth a Listen to!
|
|
|
Post by weaselcreature on Apr 11, 2016 7:11:54 GMT -8
As for Manuel's passive player problem, I think he should have an out-of-character talk with them all. Just straight up tell them that he'd like everyone to be more proactive and that there aren't any wrong moves. Much like Stu Venable did in his Vampire game. It may or may not work, but as all these players are fairly new to the pen & paper hobby, they may not know what's expected of them. I agree with this as well. In addition, as part of new player training, they should be rewarded when they're proactive. Something should always happen (good or bad (but still moving the story)) when there's any initiative. Never reply with "that doesn't work" or "that guy doesn't know anything." Manuel mentioned that one player finally asked in town if someone knew where his sister was. It didn't come across as a very RP, in-character moment, but that's fine! That NPC should have something for the players to go on, no matter who they asked. The GM should also reply in-character, complete with voice/mannerisms/whatever so the new players can see some RP in action. And yes, the Serial podcast is very good.
|
|
|
Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Apr 11, 2016 7:20:18 GMT -8
My current Podcast list: Oh and also TV Crimes but that is irregular since both hosts are busy a lot.
|
|
|
Post by ayslyn on Apr 11, 2016 9:10:47 GMT -8
Talking is great at fixing problems that crop up and need to be spotlighted so someone knows that it is an issue or bothering others. It won't fix a problem that stems from a lack of skill or experiance. Telling someone to play better does not accomplish that goal. Unless you are providing them with strategies and help in this conversation, you will acomplish only making the players feel more incompetent. Well, no and yes... As with so many things it depends on what you say, and how you say it. When I train people, I'll let them watch me go at the task at full speed, then step back, and let them know that they aren't expected to have that level of mastery, straight out of the gates, but that we might revisit that conversation in a year or so. Let them see what competence at the skill or task looks like. Let them get just a little overwhelmed by that. Then let them know that the burden and expectation of that level of competence but that there is a expectation improvement. They will relax immeasurably and things will go MUCH smoother from there on out. Putting them at ease, and letting them know that competence will come with time makes for a huge boost.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Apr 11, 2016 15:19:02 GMT -8
I haven't finished the episode, but they finished reading Manuel's email, and i just want to know what game he's ruunning? Post-Apocalyptic. There's a driver. Mad Maxish. Sounds like he should be running Apocalypse World, and constantly ask the players leading questions, and avoid yes or no questions at all costs. I wondered if he was running Apocalypse World as well. As I've said before, my first time running AW was absolutely terrible in part because of reactive players. If the players don't make moves, the narrative doesn't progress, and the GM has less and less to throw at them to force them to make moves. It can (and was for me) this huge negative feedback loop that lead to the death of the game after like two sessions. I still say that the best thing for Manuel to do is talk to his players and lay out your expectations to see if they match up. If they do and you decide to keep running the game, tell they players you would like them to be more proactive. There's nothing wrong with telling people what you expect or would like to see from them. If they still turtle around and this is Apocalypse World, they'll be giving you golden opportunities left right and center from their inactivity. Take them, make moves, advance your fronts, and escalate the situation. The players will eventually act, or the game will end in a massive (in fiction) catastrophe. Even if this isn't AW, you can apply the same principles. The NPCs and the world aren't going to stand still while the players think about what to have their characters do. Advanced your NPC's plans and agendas, make the situation for the PCs more intense, and they'll either be forced to act or get decimated. If they do act, that's great. If they don't and things go completely south, they'll have learned something. Failure is a really good teacher.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
HJRP 1616
Apr 11, 2016 23:49:58 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 23:49:58 GMT -8
Was I the only person who felt like he was complaining about passive players while also being a bit passive as the GM? I got the impression that by wanting to avoid being the quest giver his world was static apart from anything the PCs interacted with. As Hyvemind pointed out if the players are inactive the GM should be advancing the world / fronts and in the end player actions should be a response to GM actions which are in turn a response to player actions. It sounded like the players have plenty of setup material which the GM should be actively using, not waiting for the players to seek out.
As for the comparison with the vampire game I think its a different situation. With that I see it as analysis paralysis, they're so worried about making the wrong move they avoided making any for a long time. I think part of that is Stork's character, a loner who survives by avoiding confrontation while I also think Kimi seems reluctant to take charge IC. I wonder if that's an ooc issue of not wanting to take away the agency of the other players.
|
|