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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Mar 23, 2017 10:49:55 GMT -8
So I was recently reading up on some blogs that were talking about L5R and I read something that confused me a bit because I was under the impression that it was the opposite. Unfortunately, I can't link the blog as I can't seem to find it among my history search.
So on to the topic:
The author mentioned Courtiers not losing honor for lying in court or for furthering the goals of their clan/family. While there is no outright "Lying costs you honor" on the honor chart, I assumed it was implied that you had to walk a narrow oath with lies because of other examples on the list.
I've only been able to play one game of L5R so far and was not a Courtier, but it's on my bucket list of games for this year and I thought it would be good to clear this up before I ran a game.
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HazelnutMudslide
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Post by HazelnutMudslide on Mar 23, 2017 11:03:52 GMT -8
Lying in and of itself may not cost you Honor unless you personally think it should, or your GM thinks it does.
Being caught in a lie, that's gonna cost ya.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 12:43:15 GMT -8
I would say an outright lie would cost you honour given Honesty is one of the tenets of Bushido.
The trick for courtiers is to say things in such a way that they aren't technically lying, be it by omission or by phrasing things to have double meaning.
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Mar 23, 2017 13:11:44 GMT -8
I would say an outright lie would cost you honour given Honesty is one of the tenets of Bushido. The trick for courtiers is to say things in such a way that they aren't technically lying, be it by omission or by phrasing things to have double meaning. That's a bit how I was assuming Courtiers work. I got confused because it seemed like the author was implying that they wouldn't lose honor, much like the Scorpion infiltrator ability.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 13:28:20 GMT -8
Yeah it's the difference between 'we didn't know you had troops there' vs 'we had not been informed you had troops there' and as GM it's something I personally find really difficult to do on the fly.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Mar 23, 2017 14:09:05 GMT -8
Take a look at the Sincerity skill. In the description it states:
"Many in the Empire have a curious stance on the notion of lying; in many courts, it is not considered dishonourable to lie so long as the individual speaking genuinely appears to believe what he says is the truth."
The skill has 2 emphases, Honesty and Deceit, and Deceit is considered a Low Skill. So, is the use of Sincerity/Deceit dishonourable? Maybe. It's very much a judgement call at the time, and hopefully, the player in question will be open to a judgement call going against him. I find that it's generally self-evident, and while some players seem to take umbrage over losing Honour, it should be treated as an inevitable and intrinsic part of the game. L5R is supposed to push players into those moral conundrums; it's part of the samurai drama tradition.
I believe it should be a sliding scale. Essentially, if a character is acting on behalf of his Clan, he may still lose Honour because he himself knows he is lying, but it wouldn't be as much as if he was lying for his own self-interest or if he was caught in a lie. However, I think that negating the Honour loss, however small, lessens the effect of certain school techniques that do just that. The Ikoma Lion Shadow school, for example, allows a character to completely ignore any Honour loss when using low skills, provided the character is acting in the best interests of the Lion Clan. Taking that away from a player who has chosen that school isn't really fair, so I wouldn't allow a player who doesn't have that ability to get away with lying without some Honour loss, but it wouldn't be overly harsh either if the character is acting for his Clan or Daimyo.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 23, 2017 16:31:21 GMT -8
Here's the thing with bushido... sometimes one tenet is more important than another. You lied in court, ok that's against bushido. Lying got you the rice your clan desperately needs. So, you were being loyal by lying... do those balance each other out on the scales of bushido? Depends on you, depends on your clan, and depends on the game. This is why when I run a game that will include courtly stuffs I always ask my players to rank the tenets as their characters view them. I then take that, and the clan views into account when I decide if they get an honor hit or not.
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Post by akavidar on Mar 23, 2017 17:04:39 GMT -8
That's what I love about L5R, your character will often find himself in a situation where he/she must violate one or more tenants of Bushido in order to fulfill one or more tenants of Bushido. Deciding what is best in these situations makes for great roleplaying opportunities. Do I obey my Daimyo and honor my Clan, or do I tell the truth? Is there some way my character can word their response to satisfy my personal view of Bushido?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 23:44:06 GMT -8
Take a look at the Sincerity skill. In the description it states: "Many in the Empire have a curious stance on the notion of lying; in many courts, it is not considered dishonourable to lie so long as the individual speaking genuinely appears to believe what he says is the truth." The skill has 2 emphases, Honesty and Deceit, and Deceit is considered a Low Skill. So, is the use of Sincerity/Deceit dishonourable? Maybe. It's very much a judgement call at the time, and hopefully, the player in question will be open to a judgement call going against him. I find that it's generally self-evident, and while some players seem to take umbrage over losing Honour, it should be treated as an inevitable and intrinsic part of the game. L5R is supposed to push players into those moral conundrums; it's part of the samurai drama tradition. Damn, I can't believe I'd forgotten about how the skill is described, guess I need to brush up on more than I thought for when we get to court in my current game.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 0:09:29 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure using any low skill is an honor loss, so using sincerity (deceit) would lose you honor. That aside, L5R is really inconsistent about if honor is internal or external. In some places it talks about honor loss depending on the court, where in others it suggests that it doesn't matter if anyone else judges you because you should be judging yourself. I don't think there can be many definitive answers, given the above, but I can tell you what I would do: I'd make lying an honor hit.
My reasoning is thus: Honor isn't a static number. This is why the 'ranks' of honor are made up of ten points. Further, your classification of honor is a band that is usually about 2 should ranks. Given that, it's expected that you should gain and lose, hovering in the realm of how you most conduct yourself. All samurai recognize the importance of duty. Sometimes that duty will require that it be put ahead of your honor. Even if you chose to favor some virtues over others, a samurai who is entirely rigid in his adherence to bushido will be short lived indeed. In a way I could almost see it as an internal struggle to rationalize ones behavior. Were you being cowardly when you retreated? Or was it your duty not to throw your life away? Were you lying or were you protecting your clan? Did you lose face or did you defend your ancestors honor?
The honor system asks you to put your actions on a scale and weigh them. For that to work you have to be willing to call a duck a duck. In that sense your honor is personal and it doesn't matter if anyone else knows you did it. Just don't forget that you aren't just the honor police, but also the honor committee. You should be just as willing to call out positive improvements to honor.
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 24, 2017 2:56:16 GMT -8
Honor should constantly be gained and lost on a minor scale (a box or two every day). For this reason I generally hand waive it and say you often Balance out in the end. It's the odd times that you call them out.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Mar 24, 2017 5:43:33 GMT -8
The core book calls out that Honour has both internal (how the samurai views himself) and external (how others view the samurai) components. Personally, I think it's more complicated than that, but that's not a bad place to start. Each Clan and School has a starting Honour, and they are pitched to reflect both what the samurai in that school are taught, and how everyone else regards a graduate of that school. Like SirGuido says above, a Clan's world view figures into how characters act, and how they are expected to act. A Lion that acts dishonourably should take a larger Honour hit than, say, a Mantis performing the same action, simply because everyone expects the Lion to act in a certain way, while the Mantis are generally seen as greedy pirates (even though they aren't. Mostly). The action itself also colours the decision; if, as we discuss above, a courtier is using Sincerity/Deceit to lie about something in court, I will probably apply a minor Honour penalty if that courtier is acting in the interests of his Clan (unless he gets caught out; then it's serious breach of etiquette time). Advantages and Disadvantages can also have an effect too. Personally, I try to let a player know if an action will cause a loss of Honour up front and my reasoning behind it. At least that way, the player can take a moment to consider if his action is going to be worth the Honour cost, and how important his Honour is to him.
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