|
Post by Probie Tim on Jun 4, 2017 7:35:40 GMT -8
The other day, I decided to pick up my AD&D 2e PHB and start leafing through it. It got me thinking: right now, I can go to Drive Thru RPG and get official WotC PDFs of OD&D, AD&D 1e, and AD&D 2e. I can get B/X D&D PDFs, and the BECMI D&D Rules Cyclopedia. That's pretty much every pre-3.0 version of D&D.
Or!
I can go get Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, For Gold and Glory, Labyrinth Lord, or Dark Dungeons, arguably the most popular clones for the D&D versions listed above.
When retro-clones first became a "thing", those older versions of D&D were decidedly out-of-print. You could not get them unless you were willing to pay sometimes exorbitant prices on eBay, or visit some shady download sites. Retro-clones allowed the old-school player to, eh, "spread the love" without incurring a budget hit or possible legal ramifications. But now that the original games are once again available, is there a real reason to use a retro-clone instead of the actual game?
Please discuss; I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jun 4, 2017 9:38:08 GMT -8
For ADnD and ADnD 2e I don't really see the point of the retroclones, except to allow publishing of 'compatible' materials. Some of the retro clones of ADnD 1/ 2e have interpreted some of the rulings in a manner that, admittedly only in my experience, aren't consistent with the original RAW at all; ie I can see why they think that a particular mechanic worked that way but only if you misunderstood the grammer of the original. The one ADnD retroclone that IS interesting is the 'Adventures Dark and Deep' - a very speculative 'ADnD 2e that could have been' had EEG not left TSR. Being based on snippets and teases given after the release of ADnD UA (in Dragon magazine and other more esoteric sources) ODnD - I like the retro-clones, they clean up the presentation of the original (which was a hot mess due to its publishing history) without harming the intent of the original by virtue of the original being so much more open to 'DM fiat' Aaron
|
|
|
Post by Probie Tim on Jun 4, 2017 9:59:41 GMT -8
For ADnD and ADnD 2e I don't really see the point of the retroclones, except to allow publishing of 'compatible' materials. That is a good point. OSRIC was built specifically for that; it wasn't built to be a readable, how-to-RPG book, it was built to provide an OGL source of 1E AD&D compatible rules for publishers to use.
|
|
|
Post by akavidar on Jun 4, 2017 16:20:54 GMT -8
OSRIC is also nice in that it has the essential information needed from the PHB, DMG, and MM all in one volume, spiral bound to lay flat if you want it to.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Jun 4, 2017 17:33:32 GMT -8
Interesting. I hadn't known that retro-clones came about because the rules they were cloning were largely unavailable. I'd assumed original D&D and AD&D products were still obtainable, so my initial reaction to retro-clones was "I don't understand why these games are needed."
|
|
|
Post by ilina on Jun 4, 2017 20:52:14 GMT -8
i'm personally fine with Retroclones. they usually have cleaned up formatting and usually include a few of the optional rules that were often houseruled into the core system.
3d6 in order, literally needed some kind of "is this character suitable for the adventuring life?" rule to keep bad rolls in check. some call it the innkeeper rule or the shopkeeper rule, where if you rolled a character that was absolutely not suited to adventuring, you could discard them and start over from scratch.
that rule wasn't in the original whitebox D&D, or even 1e or 2e, but was included in later incarnations of the DMG because classes actually had stat requirements and the greyhawk supplement for whitebox actually started giving attributes modifiers they lacked in the original version. because stats were irrelevant in whitebox and affected absolutely nothing until greyhawk came out.
in fact, it was greyhawk that attached modifiers to attributes and started the requirement of the innkeeper rule. and in fact, by attaching modifiers that originally didn't exist to attributes, it started the later trend of attaching stat requirements to classes and later started the tend of stat substitution on core facets.
i personally would prefer an RPG where attributes play a much lesser role compared to skills.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jun 4, 2017 22:20:48 GMT -8
FFS Ilina - 1e ADnD had 4 different methods of rolling stats. UA introduced 5. The option to dump a character and start over precedes 1e and is discussed in both 1e and 2e. Point buy was introduced in Players Options for 2e. I know this because I still have my original tree bark copies of all three ... Aaron
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 22:32:22 GMT -8
The biggest reason I see to use a retroclone is the ability of the game designer to make further supplements and adventures while maintaining a right to sell them. All versions of D&D that aren't 5E are dead systems. No one is producing content for them anymore. Before 3.X the idea of OGL hadn't arrived yet. Hence you couldn't just go make your own 3rd party material and sell it as D&D compatible. I'm told that 5E has reigned some of that back as well, with stricter licenses.
If you buy old versions of D&D you are putting money into the hands of people who have no interest in furthering the game line. If you buy a retroclone, the guy who makes it may put out more materials you might want to buy. That makes it a simple decision for me, support the line that can live on, not the one that is extinct.
|
|
|
Post by Probie Tim on Jun 5, 2017 5:56:06 GMT -8
All versions of D&D that aren't 5E are dead systems. No one is producing content for them anymore. That's an interesting thought. I'd like to delve into that a bit more with a few questions: Doesn't the existence of retro-clones prove that pre-5e editions of D&D aren't dead? People are producing things for S&W, and as S&W is a clone of OD&D, doesn't that meant that people are producing content for OD&D? Same with... OSRIC and AD&D 1e? Or Labyrinth Lord and B/XD&D? Also, go take a look at the WotC PDFs for 1e and 2e AD&D. They're not scans. WotC had to completely re-do the 0e and 1e books - layout and everything - to release them as limited edition reprints which became the PDFs. All of the pre-3e PDFs have new cover art. Doesn't that mean that WotC is producing content for those systems? Are the rulebooks not content? Just putting this out there - I'm not being confrontational. This is a good part of the discussion I'd like to explore further is all.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jun 5, 2017 8:10:10 GMT -8
I also perceived the OSR movement as a reaction/rejection of the direction the likes of DnD 4e were trying to take RPG's at the time - i.e. "Table top MMO simulators" Aaron
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 14:47:32 GMT -8
All versions of D&D that aren't 5E are dead systems. No one is producing content for them anymore. That's an interesting thought. I'd like to delve into that a bit more with a few questions: Doesn't the existence of retro-clones prove that pre-5e editions of D&D aren't dead? People are producing things for S&W, and as S&W is a clone of OD&D, doesn't that meant that people are producing content for OD&D? Same with... OSRIC and AD&D 1e? Or Labyrinth Lord and B/XD&D? Also, go take a look at the WotC PDFs for 1e and 2e AD&D. They're not scans. WotC had to completely re-do the 0e and 1e books - layout and everything - to release them as limited edition reprints which became the PDFs. All of the pre-3e PDFs have new cover art. Doesn't that mean that WotC is producing content for those systems? Are the rulebooks not content? Just putting this out there - I'm not being confrontational. This is a good part of the discussion I'd like to explore further is all. You may have a point in that supporting those old editions may see more books being reproduced. Once you get to the end of that though, are they going to make new ones? I'd say that the retro clones are doing the same work of relaying everything out and may provide you with more materials in the future.
|
|