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Post by chronovore on Oct 6, 2017 20:53:22 GMT -8
Great show today, and I empathize with the on-air parenting moments. I work from home and my son frequently interrupts my efforts as well.
Just to clarify, Firestone Walker is in Paso Robles, which is the 805 area code. While I love that brewery, I don't understand why 805 is their major push. Man, their Double Jack DIPA is life-changing.
I'm looking forward to a re-listen with hopefully less "hot" audio levels. They improved quite a bit during the show, but the first part was squelchy.
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Post by RudeAlert on Oct 6, 2017 20:59:17 GMT -8
Great show today, and I empathize with the on-air parenting moments. I work from home and my son frequently interrupts my efforts as well. Just to clarify, Firestone Walker is in Paso Robles, which is the 805 area code. While I love that brewery, I don't understand why 805 is their major push. Man, their Double Jack DIPA is life-changing. I'm looking forward to a re-listen with hopefully less " hot" audio levels. They improved quite a bit during the show, but the first part was squelchy. Hot and squelchy!!! Sign me up!
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Post by Stu Venable on Oct 6, 2017 21:51:06 GMT -8
Yeah, we still have to futz with audio levels from show to show. We'll get it hammered out.
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Post by RudeAlert on Oct 7, 2017 9:53:14 GMT -8
Yeah, we still have to futz with audio levels from show to show. We'll get it hammered out.Stu, I can assure you that pouring alcohol into your recording equipment is NOT going to help. This time, alcohol really ISN'T the answer.
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Post by RudeAlert on Oct 7, 2017 12:26:36 GMT -8
Oh boy! Stork really went full-on "old man" in this one! For the record Stork, not every change in a new RPG edition or a proposed house-rule (like using cards for initiative in WoD) have to be about "fixing" a problem, or even "improving" things in some nebulous objective way. In many cases, it's simply to provide an alternate, possibly new, way of doing things, and sometimes it's just about personal preference.
As for using custom dice in RPGs, I already made a rather lengthy post in the L5R Beta thread on that topic.(http://happyjacks.proboards.com/thread/6515/l5r-beta?page=3)
As an added detail to this, something that occurred to me today; there's literally no reason, besides tradition, why every RPG couldn't have their own set of custom dice. Think of the number of board-games that come with all sorts of custom doodads, including custom dice. Combine that with the laughably small profit margins on RPG books, which is not helped by the fact that they are criminally under-priced. Yes that's right, UNDER-priced, just think of all the costs involved in designing, writing, editing, play-testing, and layout. Then add all the art, along with the high quality inks and high quality paper required to hold such ink and you'll find that if the market for RPGs wasn't so damn small, and RPG books so infinitely reusable, prices would rightfully be significantly higher.
So I really don't blame FFG, who have a habit of making very high-end products including their RPG books, for trying to actually turn a profit and keep their game lines alive. It doesn't matter how much one uses the books one already has, if no one is buying new books, the line gets canceled. And while that might not matter for those who already have all the books they want, it does prevent new people from discovering the game at a later date, and it's not really good for the business end of things either. Let's not forget, FFG is not producing these books out of the goodness of their hearts or for charitable purposes, these are people with jobs who have bills to pay like all other adults out there, so they need to crank out products that sell and generate enough profits so that they can keep their jobs.
And talking about money, let's not forget that as hobbies go RPGs are really along the cheaper end of the spectrum. People frequently bitch, whine, and moan about the price of books, or having to buy expensive custom dice (as if we didn't already all own an ungodly and entirely unnecessarily large number of dice anyways...) but compared to countless other hobbies, the return on investment for RPGs is ludicrously in favor of the players/buyers. That one single book (and possibly a few custom dice) can be all you need for the rest of your whole damn life! How many other hobbies provide that much entertainment from a single, one-time, purchase, at a frankly quite reasonable cost?
The RPG hobby is a horribly unbalanced buyer's market, and as such I feel like a lot of RPG gamers are really spoiled and take a lot for granted. It frankly borders on entitlement at times; "I shouldn't have to pay money for that," "I shouldn't need to buy that," "Why are these companies so obviously trying to make money out of running their business?" If you never want to spend another dime on RPGs, as long as you own a single core book for a single RPG, you can easily make your wish come true. But if people all over the place were to decide to take that stance, they better not come bitching when they see all their favorite game designers go out of business and stop publishing books. And when all the RPG books left in circulation are decades-old second-hand copies and it's impossible to recruit new gamers into the hobby because as far as everyone outside of our own little clique is concerned, the hobby basically doesn't exist anymore, we'd have no one to blame but ourselves.
So personally, I think pricey custom dice are a small price to pay (see what I did there?) to keep a game line alive, without the company having to rely solely on ever-more specific and niche supplements that have an ever-declining profitability. Also, frankly, I like the idea of RPGs having their own custom dice systems, that way they can be tailored to the exact needs of the setting and system to a degree that standard numbered dice simply can't. And the symbols can also be nicely flavorful as well.
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Post by Linus on Oct 7, 2017 14:25:17 GMT -8
Oh boy! Stork really went full-on "old man" in this one! I liked the part when he said that initiative in Vampire wasn't broken I like the card idea, I think I'll try it out this weekend. I even started a thread about initiative houserules, as I have trouble keeping track of the extra actions and whether or not someone have made all their allotted actions in any given turn. Dealing one card for each dot in Dex or Wits (whatever is lower) would average 2-3 cards for a neonate vampire, giving the player a bit more leeway regarding whether they'll use their action(s) for offensive or defensive purposes. (Still, a bit o' play-testing'll be needed here. Dex is possible to boost with blood, so there's the possible min-maxing oppurtunity of maxing out Wits and pump up Dex, which would then last for the entire scene for a relatively small expenditure of blood.) Perhaps use the minor arcana of a tarot deck instead of a normal one for added mystical flavour. You can always shuffle in the Fool if you want the Joker functionality as well. (Don't know what effect, if any, the dressed cards has.)
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Post by akavidar on Oct 7, 2017 18:42:43 GMT -8
I wish FFG would print a few more copies of certain Star Wars books. I wanted Fly Casual and there doesn't seem to be any more in the supply chain.
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Post by chronovore on Oct 7, 2017 21:05:37 GMT -8
Oh boy! Stork really went full-on "old man" in this one! For the record Stork, not every change in a new RPG edition or a proposed house-rule (like using cards for initiative in WoD) have to be about "fixing" a problem, or even "improving" things in some nebulous objective way. In many cases, it's simply to provide an alternate, possibly new, way of doing things, and sometimes it's just about personal preference. As for using custom dice in RPGs, I already made a rather lengthy post in the L5R Beta thread on that topic.(http://happyjacks.proboards.com/thread/6515/l5r-beta?page=3) As an added detail to this, something that occurred to me today; there's literally no reason, besides tradition, why every RPG couldn't have their own set of custom dice. Think of the number of board-games that come with all sorts of custom doodads, including custom dice. Combine that with the laughably small profit margins on RPG books, which is not helped by the fact that they are criminally under-priced. Yes that's right, UNDER-priced, just think of all the costs involved in designing, writing, editing, play-testing, and layout. Then add all the art, along with the high quality inks and high quality paper required to hold such ink and you'll find that if the market for RPGs wasn't so damn small, and RPG books so infinitely reusable, prices would rightfully be significantly higher. So I really don't blame FFG, who have a habit of making very high-end products including their RPG books, for trying to actually turn a profit and keep their game lines alive. It doesn't matter how much one uses the books one already has, if no one is buying new books, the line gets canceled. And while that might not matter for those who already have all the books they want, it does prevent new people from discovering the game at a later date, and it's not really good for the business end of things either. Let's not forget, FFG is not producing these books out of the goodness of their hearts or for charitable purposes, these are people with jobs who have bills to pay like all other adults out there, so they need to crank out products that sell and generate enough profits so that they can keep their jobs. And talking about money, let's not forget that as hobbies go RPGs are really along the cheaper end of the spectrum. People frequently bitch, whine, and moan about the price of books, or having to buy expensive custom dice (as if we didn't already all own an ungodly and entirely unnecessarily large number of dice anyways...) but compared to countless other hobbies, the return on investment for RPGs is ludicrously in favor of the players/buyers. That one single book (and possibly a few custom dice) can be all you need for the rest of your whole damn life! How many other hobbies provide that much entertainment from a single, one-time, purchase, at a frankly quite reasonable cost? The RPG hobby is a horribly unbalanced buyer's market, and as such I feel like a lot of RPG gamers are really spoiled and take a lot for granted. It frankly borders on entitlement at times; "I shouldn't have to pay money for that," "I shouldn't need to buy that," "Why are these companies so obviously trying to make money out of running their business?" If you never want to spend another dime on RPGs, as long as you own a single core book for a single RPG, you can easily make your wish come true. But if people all over the place were to decide to take that stance, they better not come bitching when they see all their favorite game designers go out of business and stop publishing books. And when all the RPG books left in circulation are decades-old second-hand copies and it's impossible to recruit new gamers into the hobby because as far as everyone outside of our own little clique is concerned, the hobby basically doesn't exist anymore, we'd have no one to blame but ourselves. So personally, I think pricey custom dice are a small price to pay (see what I did there?) to keep a game line alive, without the company having to rely solely on ever-more specific and niche supplements that have an ever-declining profitability. Also, frankly, I like the idea of RPGs having their own custom dice systems, that way they can be tailored to the exact needs of the setting and system to a degree that standard numbered dice simply can't. And the symbols can also be nicely flavorful as well. Dude, Wall-of-text much? i think you make good points about an unbalanced market, but fall to appealing to extremes with the final argument. We’re seeing more RPGs than ever before, though I agree that it’s sad so few people can make a full time gig of it.
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 7, 2017 21:21:29 GMT -8
which is not helped by the fact that they are criminally under-priced. Yes that's right, UNDER-priced, just think of all the costs involved in designing, writing, editing, play-testing, and layout. Then add all the art, along with the high quality inks and high quality paper required to hold such ink and you'll find that if the market for RPGs wasn't so damn small, and RPG books so infinitely reusable, prices would rightfully be significantly higher. Speaking as someone who sold books for five years, and put them together for eight.... No, they aren't. You don't figure out the price of a book based on how long it took to develop, or how much art you put into it; rather you figure out how much art goes into it, and what other resources to put into it based off how much you think the market can bear to pay for your book. RPG books are appropriately priced for their quality. Their low profit margins comes from not getting large print runs (more books means a bigger price break per unit). When you're only ordering a couple of thousand copies (or even less, some times) you simply won't get the discounts that someone who's ordering hundreds of thousands will. Niche products are always less profitable than mainstream. Paper, binding, and whether or not you're using colour are the driving forces of the price of your book. Better paper? You can charge more. Better binding? Definitely. Financially speaking, if you're going to add any colour to the book, go all in. Once you've added a second colour plate, adding the third and fourth are peanuts. That Vampire the Requiem book with the black and red? Aesthetically gorgeous, financially silly.... They could have gone full colour without impacting their bottom line very much. Hmm... Another practical example. I worked on the Brandon Sanderson Stormlight Archives (specifically the first one, Way of Kings). Take a look at a copy of it sometime. Each chapter has a distinct graphic above the header. 75 chapters.... Each one a different graphic. They're tiny, right? Not when they were sent to us. High resolution (1200 dpi) graphics that were about a quarter page large.... We had to run the downloads overnight because they were several gigs..... and if there were edits.......... *shudders* Despite all that work, hours of downloading graphics, weeks of layout, and editing and proofing and prepress work; add in the time Brandon needed to write it, his artist to draw 75 individual graphics, scan them into a computer, send them to the publisher..... All that work, and it's still MSRPing at $35. Why? Because a decent quality hardcover sitting at some 1000 or so pages, from a popular author runs around that price. That's what people will pay for it.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Oct 8, 2017 2:31:18 GMT -8
Still listening, but in response to Julian from Paris, the question had me recalling The Dracula Dossier, and specifically, the Edom files supplement to that campaign. The campaign itself is very free form, there are no “adventures” as such, just loads of situations, characters, objects and places that the GM and players use to create an improvised campaign. But the Edom Files is different, that features adventures in a more traditional, slightly railroady, mode. These feature George Stoker (Bram’s Brother) discovering the existence of vampires, post war adventures with werewolves, and eighties set meat-grinder etc. I think the best way to play those adventures is when in the present day campaign, the PCs find a secret file, or fix a meeting with a retired agent. They play through the adventure, and what they discover in play turns out to be what the read in the file or learned from the contact, next time they play in the present day campaign.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Oct 8, 2017 4:21:32 GMT -8
Oh fucking hell stork! Stop resenting people wanting to make money. AEG sold a game that was loved by many many thousands of people. But they could not make it pay. Why oh Why do you resent FFG trying to make an extra dollar or so on dice?
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Post by RudeAlert on Oct 8, 2017 9:49:01 GMT -8
Oh fucking hell stork ! Stop resenting people wanting to make money. AEG sold a game that was loved by many many thousands of people. But they could not make it pay. Why oh Why do you resent FFG trying to make an extra dollar or so on dice? Thank you! Thank you thank you thank you! Also, much more efficient than my long post.
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Post by RudeAlert on Oct 8, 2017 10:07:17 GMT -8
Oh boy! Stork really went full-on "old man" in this one! For the record Stork, not every change in a new RPG edition or a proposed house-rule (like using cards for initiative in WoD) have to be about "fixing" a problem, or even "improving" things in some nebulous objective way. In many cases, it's simply to provide an alternate, possibly new, way of doing things, and sometimes it's just about personal preference. As for using custom dice in RPGs, I already made a rather lengthy post in the L5R Beta thread on that topic.(http://happyjacks.proboards.com/thread/6515/l5r-beta?page=3) As an added detail to this, something that occurred to me today; there's literally no reason, besides tradition, why every RPG couldn't have their own set of custom dice. Think of the number of board-games that come with all sorts of custom doodads, including custom dice. Combine that with the laughably small profit margins on RPG books, which is not helped by the fact that they are criminally under-priced. Yes that's right, UNDER-priced, just think of all the costs involved in designing, writing, editing, play-testing, and layout. Then add all the art, along with the high quality inks and high quality paper required to hold such ink and you'll find that if the market for RPGs wasn't so damn small, and RPG books so infinitely reusable, prices would rightfully be significantly higher. So I really don't blame FFG, who have a habit of making very high-end products including their RPG books, for trying to actually turn a profit and keep their game lines alive. It doesn't matter how much one uses the books one already has, if no one is buying new books, the line gets canceled. And while that might not matter for those who already have all the books they want, it does prevent new people from discovering the game at a later date, and it's not really good for the business end of things either. Let's not forget, FFG is not producing these books out of the goodness of their hearts or for charitable purposes, these are people with jobs who have bills to pay like all other adults out there, so they need to crank out products that sell and generate enough profits so that they can keep their jobs. And talking about money, let's not forget that as hobbies go RPGs are really along the cheaper end of the spectrum. People frequently bitch, whine, and moan about the price of books, or having to buy expensive custom dice (as if we didn't already all own an ungodly and entirely unnecessarily large number of dice anyways...) but compared to countless other hobbies, the return on investment for RPGs is ludicrously in favor of the players/buyers. That one single book (and possibly a few custom dice) can be all you need for the rest of your whole damn life! How many other hobbies provide that much entertainment from a single, one-time, purchase, at a frankly quite reasonable cost? The RPG hobby is a horribly unbalanced buyer's market, and as such I feel like a lot of RPG gamers are really spoiled and take a lot for granted. It frankly borders on entitlement at times; "I shouldn't have to pay money for that," "I shouldn't need to buy that," "Why are these companies so obviously trying to make money out of running their business?" If you never want to spend another dime on RPGs, as long as you own a single core book for a single RPG, you can easily make your wish come true. But if people all over the place were to decide to take that stance, they better not come bitching when they see all their favorite game designers go out of business and stop publishing books. And when all the RPG books left in circulation are decades-old second-hand copies and it's impossible to recruit new gamers into the hobby because as far as everyone outside of our own little clique is concerned, the hobby basically doesn't exist anymore, we'd have no one to blame but ourselves. So personally, I think pricey custom dice are a small price to pay (see what I did there?) to keep a game line alive, without the company having to rely solely on ever-more specific and niche supplements that have an ever-declining profitability. Also, frankly, I like the idea of RPGs having their own custom dice systems, that way they can be tailored to the exact needs of the setting and system to a degree that standard numbered dice simply can't. And the symbols can also be nicely flavorful as well. Dude, Wall-of-text much? i think you make good points about an unbalanced market, but fall to appealing to extremes with the final argument. We’re seeing more RPGs than ever before, though I agree that it’s sad so few people can make a full time gig of it. I find that very few things worth saying can be expressed properly in 140 characters of less, so I like to take the time to say what I have to say properly. (Also, as you can guess by the above reference I hate the very idea of Twitter and definitely don't plan to ever have an account there.) The argument about RPGs disappearing is indeed extreme, but I find that an extreme example when reacting to an extreme stance is not out of place. People who bitch about every dollar when they're spending them on one of the cheaper hobbies out there are themselves taking an extreme stance. As you said yourself, very few people can make a living from RPGs, in large part due to all the points I outlined in my "wall-of-text," but also due to the glut of fan-made games that are sold at ridiculously low prices, or even outright offered for free. That kind of competition absolutely kills marketability, if it wasn't for that kind of unfair competition, RPG books would very likely be far more expensive. RPG publishers have to find ways to make money somehow, the fact that many can't figure out such a way is why we see a constant rise and fall of new games being published and then pretty much falling into obscurity. Or being published in their entirety by a single big Kickstater project with no followup after the initial (and only) release. The bigger publishers manage to last longer by producing more supplements to keep the money flowing in, but that produces diminishing returns. FFG has figured out that if you get creative with your dice, you might be able to supplement your income a bit more and perhaps keep the game in print for longer. I think that's a decent idea and if used well, it can even enrich the game system itself. Of course it can produce a certain amount of backlash from the older gamers, who are notoriously conservative and change-averse, but the younger, or simply less rigid, ones can still provide enough income to keep the game line afloat.
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Post by RudeAlert on Oct 8, 2017 10:17:34 GMT -8
which is not helped by the fact that they are criminally under-priced. Yes that's right, UNDER-priced, just think of all the costs involved in designing, writing, editing, play-testing, and layout. Then add all the art, along with the high quality inks and high quality paper required to hold such ink and you'll find that if the market for RPGs wasn't so damn small, and RPG books so infinitely reusable, prices would rightfully be significantly higher. Speaking as someone who sold books for five years, and put them together for eight.... No, they aren't. You don't figure out the price of a book based on how long it took to develop, or how much art you put into it; rather you figure out how much art goes into it, and what other resources to put into it based off how much you think the market can bear to pay for your book. RPG books are appropriately priced for their quality. Their low profit margins comes from not getting large print runs (more books means a bigger price break per unit). When you're only ordering a couple of thousand copies (or even less, some times) you simply won't get the discounts that someone who's ordering hundreds of thousands will.Niche products are always less profitable than mainstream. Paper, binding, and whether or not you're using colour are the driving forces of the price of your book. Better paper? You can charge more. Better binding? Definitely. Financially speaking, if you're going to add any colour to the book, go all in. Once you've added a second colour plate, adding the third and fourth are peanuts. That Vampire the Requiem book with the black and red? Aesthetically gorgeous, financially silly.... They could have gone full colour without impacting their bottom line very much. Hmm... Another practical example. I worked on the Brandon Sanderson Stormlight Archives (specifically the first one, Way of Kings). Take a look at a copy of it sometime. Each chapter has a distinct graphic above the header. 75 chapters.... Each one a different graphic. They're tiny, right? Not when they were sent to us. High resolution (1200 dpi) graphics that were about a quarter page large.... We had to run the downloads overnight because they were several gigs..... and if there were edits.......... *shudders* Despite all that work, hours of downloading graphics, weeks of layout, and editing and proofing and prepress work; add in the time Brandon needed to write it, his artist to draw 75 individual graphics, scan them into a computer, send them to the publisher..... All that work, and it's still MSRPing at $35. Why? Because a decent quality hardcover sitting at some 1000 or so pages, from a popular author runs around that price. That's what people will pay for it. Regarding the bolded part, I did say: "if the market for RPGs wasn't so damn small, and RPG books so infinitely reusable, prices would rightfully be significantly higher." I am well aware that RPGs are priced in order to accommodate what the market is able, and willing, to pay. But that's the whole point, due to the insane number of RPGs that come out on a regular basis, combined with the small size of our hobby, RPG books are being sold at a ridiculously deflated price, which is a tremendous boon to us the buyers (hence the "buyer's market" reference further down in my initial post), but a massive problem for the publishers. Hence why I find it so annoying when people go around bitching about having to spend a little bit more money on something when their hobby is already ridiculously under-priced due to its niche nature. I would be far more sympathetic to that complaint if RPG books were sold at 200$ a pop, but they're not, and they last pretty much forever (assuming you take good care of your books). A guy I used to work with years ago, when talking about gamers bitching about the increasing price of RPG books (which I feel applies in this context), used to say: "It's like they all want tomorrow's games, today, at yesterday's prices."
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 8, 2017 11:46:16 GMT -8
Speaking as someone who sold books for five years, and put them together for eight.... No, they aren't. You don't figure out the price of a book based on how long it took to develop, or how much art you put into it; rather you figure out how much art goes into it, and what other resources to put into it based off how much you think the market can bear to pay for your book. RPG books are appropriately priced for their quality. Their low profit margins comes from not getting large print runs (more books means a bigger price break per unit). When you're only ordering a couple of thousand copies (or even less, some times) you simply won't get the discounts that someone who's ordering hundreds of thousands will.Niche products are always less profitable than mainstream. Paper, binding, and whether or not you're using colour are the driving forces of the price of your book. Better paper? You can charge more. Better binding? Definitely. Financially speaking, if you're going to add any colour to the book, go all in. Once you've added a second colour plate, adding the third and fourth are peanuts. That Vampire the Requiem book with the black and red? Aesthetically gorgeous, financially silly.... They could have gone full colour without impacting their bottom line very much. Hmm... Another practical example. I worked on the Brandon Sanderson Stormlight Archives (specifically the first one, Way of Kings). Take a look at a copy of it sometime. Each chapter has a distinct graphic above the header. 75 chapters.... Each one a different graphic. They're tiny, right? Not when they were sent to us. High resolution (1200 dpi) graphics that were about a quarter page large.... We had to run the downloads overnight because they were several gigs..... and if there were edits.......... *shudders* Despite all that work, hours of downloading graphics, weeks of layout, and editing and proofing and prepress work; add in the time Brandon needed to write it, his artist to draw 75 individual graphics, scan them into a computer, send them to the publisher..... All that work, and it's still MSRPing at $35. Why? Because a decent quality hardcover sitting at some 1000 or so pages, from a popular author runs around that price. That's what people will pay for it. Regarding the bolded part, I did say: "if the market for RPGs wasn't so damn small, and RPG books so infinitely reusable, prices would rightfully be significantly higher." Um.... No. The PROFIT would be higher. That's vastly different. Again.... No. That's simply put not how it works. I think you might be mistaking pricing and profit. If RPGs were able to go for higher quantity print runs, they would bring their costs down, allowing them to get more of that $50 than they do currently, but it wouldn't allow them to raise the price they charged the consumer. The books are appropriately priced for their size and quality. I'm the first one in line defending the high price points of modern RPG books. When L5R 4e first came out, it was in the early wave of the $50-60 books. People bitched and moaned about how dare they try to rip us off. I pointed out that having handled the books themselves, I could say that it was absolutely a $50 book. Great quality paper, binding, full colour... It was absolutely a book that should be priced at $50. However, I also acknowledged that there was a valid conversation to be had over whether or not it was a good idea to make a $50 book. There are a number of people who think that is simply too much to pay for an RPG. As that's a personal decision, they're right (for them). The move to higher quality production has priced some people out of buying certain RPGs.
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