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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 0:34:24 GMT -8
I’ve been getting back into Gumshoe recently. One of the core conceits of the game is that you can’t fail to receive a clue based on a check (you can fail by not having the right skill or not using it). In essence, failure in investigative scenes due to mechanics are not allowed. The reason for this is that the difficulty/fun of the game is in interpreting the clues. Further, you can still fail in the catagory of general actions (fail to outrun the slavering monster and get mauled to death). Why is one okay, but not the other?
The simple answer is genre convention. It’s a horror game, so death by monster fits the tropes. ..Or does it? I recently finished watching Stranger Things 2, and something struck me about it: The main cast seems to have plot armor. Stranger Things is in the genre of Horror, but unlike many such examples is a TV show instead of a movie. The story continues from one episode to the next instead of terminating after a few hours like most movies. So if members of the main cast were in danger of actual death, we’d be out a show for lack of characters before long (or the cast would have a large turnover).
Game of Thrones has main cast members die as a staple, but the story is also adding new cast members or raising them in importance as the series progresses. While not wholly similar to an adventuring group, there is a strong parallel with party (cast) members being replaced as old ones kick the bucket. While I really enjoy game of thrones, I also enjoy a lot of media that follows the more conventional wisdom of keeping the core cast stable. So why do rpg’s skew towards game of thrones instead of stranger things?
Is it just inertia? Characters in wargames died and so rpg’s Characters too should die? Why don’t we see more games that make death either impossible or improbable? Why don’t more games that include lethality have a better system in play for generating replacement characters (kobald’s ate my baby has this nailed down)?
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Oct 30, 2017 2:41:57 GMT -8
In short, yes.
But Tales From the Loop and (IIRC) Bubblegumshoe, both having a Stranger Things feel, don’t have character death, but rather “conditions” that change the players agency in game, until the character recovers.
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Oct 30, 2017 12:44:35 GMT -8
I'm definitely seeing or noticing this more in modern gaming circles. Masks as a superheroes game has conditions similarly, instead of outright death.
I recently ran a game of Ten Candles, which is a horror game with... well, 10 candles. And similar to Dread it is tension inducing with environment and props and building to that ending, but instead of "survival" horror, it is "tragic" horror (everyone dies at the end). However I was talking to some folks about how to kiddify it so you can play with youngsters and have a less tragic ending.
Someone suggested running this more as a "kids exploring the forest in camp after curfew" or "kids escaping for late night escapades without the parents knowing." The last candle going out isn't Death, it's Getting Caught, and having to end the adventure, or getting in trouble.
Anyways, maybe it's just the (hippie) games I've been playing, but death is rarely the be-all-end-all in many of them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 15:22:02 GMT -8
I like how the original 7th Sea handled death. BAsically, if you take enough damage, you fall down. The only ways to die were: if you forced yourself back up heroically to keep fighting after 'falling down', next hit kills you; if an Enemy (basically a boss, not a lackey) took a deliberate action to kill you; or you do something blatantly stupid like diving in front of an Eisen Roaring Cannon.
It's really borderline superheroic ("No one could have survived that" so they don't check for a body)but also fits with the genre ("Aha, I have him trapped away on an island! No way he could possibly come back unknown as the Count of Monte Cristo!")
I do think there's been a shift to make PCs less disposable to further story arcs, but there are still games (like 1e L5R - not sure on the new one) where the lethality is baked inside -- as John Wick wrote, when he asked Sensei Tony, the employees' kenjutsu instructor, how many times he needed to hit someone to kill them, sensei just said "I Only need to hit you once".
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Oct 31, 2017 7:16:45 GMT -8
Similarly, in Star Wars Saga Edition, any time you take damage that would normally kill you, you can spend a Force Point (assuming you still have one left) to state that you're only unconscious. You can't die unless you either choose not to spend the Force Point or choose to spend your last FP on something else, thereby signalling that you're willing to die if it comes to that. It fits the genre and also puts a lot of agency in the hands of the players.
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Post by chronovore on Nov 5, 2017 20:57:32 GMT -8
FATE Core, as well, allows for character death, stating: “We recommend the latter approach, mainly for the following reason: most of the time, sudden character death is a pretty boring outcome when compared to putting the character through hell.”
For some reason, my players jokingly seemed more enthused about letting their PC die rather than finding out what I thought would be "interesting."
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Post by jazzisblues on Nov 10, 2017 14:35:21 GMT -8
Bad Streets also has conditions, and the only way to actually get dead in Bad Streets is to choose to.
Cheers,
JiB
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Post by chronovore on Nov 12, 2017 19:49:23 GMT -8
Bad Streets also has conditions, and the only way to actually get dead in Bad Streets is to choose to. Cheers, JiB Is there an advantage to choosing to be dead? Side note: Not a sentence I'd expected to type today…
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Post by jazzisblues on Nov 13, 2017 7:05:47 GMT -8
Bad Streets also has conditions, and the only way to actually get dead in Bad Streets is to choose to. Cheers, JiB Is there an advantage to choosing to be dead? Side note: Not a sentence I'd expected to type today…You get narrative control over what happens. Lay it Down – When you lay down your life to defend or protect another, narrate what you are doing, and roll + your total reputation. On 10+ you do it, you narrate what happens and how the story ends for your character. On 7-9 you do it, but there’s some problem, select 1 from below. On 6- you do it, but the Commissioner picks 2 from below. - Lingering doubt (There is some lingering doubt about you, or what you did.) - Still in danger (The person you were trying to protect is still in some future danger.) - Someone else gets the credit (Another detective is credited with what you did.) - The bad guys get away (The bad guys survive, or live to fight another day.) It's only been done once in a game, so far. The detectives were in a fire fight with the principal bad guy and his goons, and things were going poorly for the detectives when one of them (played by a 12 year old kid) decided to lay it down for his fellow detectives and saved them all. It's one of those moments in play that I wish I had recorded. Cheers, JiB
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Post by chronovore on Nov 13, 2017 17:31:52 GMT -8
Holy moly, that sounds incredible.
I am also somewhat relieved that there's no "pay it forward — to myself!" portion of the mechanic that would benefit the next character they bring to the game.
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