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Post by EricaOdd on Jul 29, 2018 3:59:12 GMT -8
I'm finally catching up on the Demigods AP, and a few times Jason has mentioned "banking hard moves" and so on. I know that a hard move is rolling 3 dice and taking the two lowest, and an easy move is the reverse, but when and why does the GM bank those moves? What prompts this option?
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Jul 29, 2018 8:42:06 GMT -8
I have only limited experience running a PBTA (so others correct me if I am wrong), but I don’t think your understanding of hard move is correct. The way I understand hard moves, is that they are something the GM does that the PC can’t change, often invoked when the PC fails a roll. So for example, in a supers game, the player flunks a roll to capture the bad guy. The GM gets to make a hard move, which may be a simple as dealing damage to the PC, or captur8ng their sidekick. But, Those hard moves don’t need to happen straight away. So for example, the GM can bank the hard move, and the sidekick can disappear in a later scene... Edit. This is quite useful www.magpiegames.com/2016/03/17/picking-the-right-gm-move-in-pbta-part-one/
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jul 29, 2018 23:03:29 GMT -8
The way I understand hard moves, is that they are something the GM does that the PC can’t change, often invoked when the PC fails a roll. Yup. That's what a hard move is. There are going to be variations between the different PbtA games (as they are not a unified system, but a family of similar games), but basically a GM move is the term used when the GM makes something happen. In other words, the GM essentially "takes a turn". That most often happens when: a player rolls a 6 or less on the dice (a miss), everyone looks at the GM to see what happens next, or the player characters give the GM a golden opportunity (meaning they've ignored some impending threat). GM moves are usually broken into soft moves and hard moves. Soft moves can be reacted to, prevented, or avoided. "The guard sees you and starts running towards you." "The wizard reaches into her bag; she's going to cast a spell." The player characters are given a chance to avoid whatever potential nastiness is coming. Hard moves cannot be reacted to, prevented, or avoided. "The guard sees you and starts running towards you, hurling his javelin as he closes. Take 2 harm." "The wizard reaches into her bag; you feel your body freeze up as the petrification spell takes effect." If ignored or not dealt with, soft moves can become hard moves. As for banking GM moves, some PbtA games expressly allow the GM to do this, some expressly don't, and others leave it up to taste. Personally, I'm against the GM banking moves. I find PbtA games run best when the players (and their characters) are constantly given things to react to. That keeps the action flowing, the dice rolling, and the narrative moving. Banking a GM move (meaning the GM is "saving" their opportunity and is going to make something happen later) feels too much like "nothing happens right now" for my tastes.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Jul 29, 2018 23:09:32 GMT -8
I know that a hard move is rolling 3 dice and taking the two lowest, and an easy move is the reverse This sounds more like Advantage and Disadvantage (which some PbtA games do, mechanically). Hard and Soft Moves are a different beast entirely (as described by HyveMynd in her reply)
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Post by EricaOdd on Jul 30, 2018 3:04:57 GMT -8
Thanks all! I'm trying to piece together enough info to run a Demigods one-shot for my players. The only PbtA resources I have are the Monsterhearts 2 book (which doesn't mention hard or soft moves, to my recollection), and the Demigods AP and playbooks, which do mention them in passing.
About the dice mechanic bit, I guess I got confused about what that was referring to. It's mentioned as Fortune's Dis/Favor in the Demigods playbooks, so I think I conflated the two.
Thanks for the assist(s)!
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Jul 30, 2018 7:17:22 GMT -8
Thanks all! I'm trying to piece together enough info to run a Demigods one-shot for my players. The only PbtA resources I have are the Monsterhearts 2 book (which doesn't mention hard or soft moves, to my recollection), and the Demigods AP and playbooks, which do mention them in passing. You might want to check out the free Dungeon World Guide found at www.dungeon-world.com/downloads/, as it does a good job in writing down a lot of examples of how moves work in play. I think for all the PbtA games, Dungeon World will probably be the one where you can get the most assistance due to its popularity (for good or ill; hopefully just good).
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Post by vyrrk on Jul 30, 2018 11:02:48 GMT -8
I would also suggest looking at the basic/gm moves of a bunch of PBTA games. Most of them offer the moves sheet for free on their websites. A lot of them have a move called "Hard Move" or something like that you can read the details on.
The Masks "Hard Move" I think is very good and kinda base most of my hard moves in any game around it.
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Post by Monkeyfun Dave on Jul 30, 2018 14:42:07 GMT -8
As for banking GM moves, some PbtA games expressly allow the GM to do this, some expressly don't, and others leave it up to taste. Personally, I'm against the GM banking moves. I find PbtA games run best when the players (and their characters) are constantly given things to react to. That keeps the action flowing, the dice rolling, and the narrative moving. Banking a GM move (meaning the GM is "saving" their opportunity and is going to make something happen later) feels too much like "nothing happens right now" for my tastes.I do it a little differently - I chalk up certain hard moves under the umbrella of "offscreen badness", in that something has indeed happened but the players are unaware of it at this time. One of the things we do in our PbtA adventures is to encourage the Gearshift to grow in intensity, regardless of the players are directly aware its "downshifting". And it's usually worse.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jul 30, 2018 17:00:40 GMT -8
Thanks all! I'm trying to piece together enough info to run a Demigods one-shot for my players. The only PbtA resources I have are the Monsterhearts 2 book (which doesn't mention hard or soft moves, to my recollection), and the Demigods AP and playbooks, which do mention them in passing. About the dice mechanic bit, I guess I got confused about what that was referring to. It's mentioned as Fortune's Dis/Favor in the Demigods playbooks, so I think I conflated the two. Thanks for the assist(s)! One of the potentially confusing things about PbtA games (and why I say they're a related family of games rather than a single system) is that different games will give the same thing a different name. I believe that Monsterhearts 2 calls GM Moves "Reactions". They're exactly the same thing though. As for banking GM moves, some PbtA games expressly allow the GM to do this, some expressly don't, and others leave it up to taste. Personally, I'm against the GM banking moves. I find PbtA games run best when the players (and their characters) are constantly given things to react to. That keeps the action flowing, the dice rolling, and the narrative moving. Banking a GM move (meaning the GM is "saving" their opportunity and is going to make something happen later) feels too much like "nothing happens right now" for my tastes.I do it a little differently - I chalk up certain hard moves under the umbrella of "offscreen badness", in that something has indeed happened but the players are unaware of it at this time. One of the things we do in our PbtA adventures is to encourage the Gearshift to grow in intensity, regardless of the players are directly aware its "downshifting". And it's usually worse. Oh absolutely. I sometimes have GM Moves happen "offscreen". When I do that though, I still give the players (and sometimes the characters) an indication of what has happened. As I said, I personally dislike it when nothing about the current situation changes as a result of a GM Move.
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Post by Monkeyfun Dave on Aug 1, 2018 17:09:32 GMT -8
I thought about it, and I realized I do give an indication but strictly on a player level. Usually by saying something to the effect of, "Well. I'm sure nothing bad will come of that."
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Aug 9, 2018 1:27:44 GMT -8
So, campaign stylee go free-form. I ran the Zaloznhy Quartet, segueing into the Dracula Dossier with mimimal prep. They go on a lot about the Pyramids in the rules, but I didn’t fill out much in advance, just the clues and options they players were likely to encounter in the next adventure. So when they decided an un-named mystery vampire was Quincy, I was able to make him Quincy and confirmed their suspicions in the next adventure.
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Post by kurtpotts on Aug 13, 2018 10:26:50 GMT -8
Depending on the level of 4th wall breakage the players are used to. I could see zooming out and setting a seen for the "Audience" where the bad guy finally catches a break or pans out of their magic mirror to show they know exactly what to do next.
Usually, when I "bank" hard moves I just say a bell tolls in the distance or ominous clouds gather on the horizon.
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Post by natebob on Aug 17, 2018 4:04:41 GMT -8
The way I understand hard moves, is that they are something the GM does that the PC can’t change, often invoked when the PC fails a roll. Yup. That's what a hard move is. There are going to be variations between the different PbtA games (as they are not a unified system, but a family of similar games), but basically a GM move is the term used when the GM makes something happen. In other words, the GM essentially "takes a turn". That most often happens when: a player rolls a 6 or less on the dice (a miss), everyone looks at the GM to see what happens next, or the player characters give the GM a golden opportunity (meaning they've ignored some impending threat). GM moves are usually broken into soft moves and hard moves. Soft moves can be reacted to, prevented, or avoided. "The guard sees you and starts running towards you." "The wizard reaches into her bag; she's going to cast a spell." The player characters are given a chance to avoid whatever potential nastiness is coming. Hard moves cannot be reacted to, prevented, or avoided. "The guard sees you and starts running towards you, hurling his javelin as he closes. Take 2 harm." "The wizard reaches into her bag; you feel your body freeze up as the petrification spell takes effect." If ignored or not dealt with, soft moves can become hard moves. As for banking GM moves, some PbtA games expressly allow the GM to do this, some expressly don't, and others leave it up to taste. Personally, I'm against the GM banking moves. I find PbtA games run best when the players (and their characters) are constantly given things to react to. That keeps the action flowing, the dice rolling, and the narrative moving. Banking a GM move (meaning the GM is "saving" their opportunity and is going to make something happen later) feels too much like "nothing happens right now" for my tastes. I agree. Even time I’ve tried “saving” a hard move I always forget to use it. So essentially it’s worthless
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 22:53:33 GMT -8
I agree. Even time I’ve tried “saving” a hard move I always forget to use it. So essentially it’s worthless If I may, that is because it's not supposed to be saved. You don't put the move aside to figure out later, you reveal it's effects later. A great version of this could occur on a failed move to scale some sort of surface. The character scrabbles and they hear the sound of something clattering down the side of the cliff.
What does that mean for the player? It could mean something fell out of their pack. It could be a clue for a bounty hunter who is trailing them. It could mean lot of things that will all occur later (in this case). Important is that the player narrated, a move was triggered and resolved, and more narration followed.
The thing you save is the reveal of the move, not the performance of it. In addition, I also think the move should be relevant to what is occurring. Using a banked move to advance some completely unrelated threat off screen seems like weak sauce caused by a lack of creativity.
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Post by akavidar on Aug 23, 2018 4:21:57 GMT -8
Everyone plays differently, as long as everyone is having fun, play the way YOU want. If everyone is NOT having fun at the table, changes should be discussed. There is no one RIGHT way to play.
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