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Post by Linus on Aug 26, 2018 17:15:10 GMT -8
Cheers, good show!
What are y'all opinions on off-loading the front-loading onto randomization - both in terms of a hexcrawl/sandbox and more focused pre-written adventures? My own thoughts regarding prep these days tend to involve the creation of tools and aids for improv, rather than making thorough notes of locations and characters; it could be like making all NPCs up on the fly, drawing a name and a couple of characteristics from a deck of cards instead of writing that down beforehand.
I guess it could be merely a matter of GM style and preference, but I often feel intimidated by trying to read up on a detailed campaign. It's tempting to just memorize clue-trails or NPC goals for instance, and leave all the "flavour" for when/if the player characters encounter them in-game - and then storing the results for future revisits.
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tappy
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Post by tappy on Aug 26, 2018 18:12:30 GMT -8
I'll be honest with you, I'm not a big fan of that. There is a point where randomizing all the prep, and all the world, and the npcs without using your own creativity except to react and try and make silly jumps to form a coherent narrative that it really just turns into an improv game rather than roleplaying. Fiasco really skirts that edge... it really is more of a party game than a real RPG... or you could say that it is a party game for roleplayers. one you can do while HAMMERED (which is kind of the point).
Weave is another game that does this. give you random prompts and random encounters that the GM tries to weave into a coherent narrative. The stated goal of the game is that it takes 15 minutes from deciding to play the game with no prep to having dice hit the table. It succeeds in this, but it really feels more like an improv game in college where the audience is shouting random shit that you have to incorporate into your game.
Creating a world that feels real is one of the goals of a GM. Randomizing that partially could be a good way to give you inspiration if you have none, but too much can be ridiculous.
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Post by uncommonman on Aug 26, 2018 22:29:30 GMT -8
Mutant Year Zero is made to be a post apocalyptic hexcrawl. You start with an "Arc" a haven that have needs like water, food and protection and each session you loose inhabitants if you haven't upgraded your Arc. The players have characters with their own goals but each session the have the opportunity to spend their own time and resources to improve the Arc. They also get experience points if they help the Arc. www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/6xmejj/mutant_year_zero_is_septembers_game_of_the_month/
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tappy
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Post by tappy on Aug 26, 2018 23:48:58 GMT -8
Mutant Year Zero is made to be a post apocalyptic hexcrawl. You start with an "Arc" a haven that have needs like water, food and protection and each session you loose inhabitants if you haven't upgraded your Arc. The players have characters with their own goals but each session the have the opportunity to spend their own time and resources to improve the Arc. They also get experience points if they help the Arc. www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/6xmejj/mutant_year_zero_is_septembers_game_of_the_month/I really like that mechanic, and really want to play the game to see if it plays out like I think it will.
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Post by uncommonman on Aug 27, 2018 5:22:16 GMT -8
Mutant Year Zero is made to be a post apocalyptic hexcrawl. You start with an "Arc" a haven that have needs like water, food and protection and each session you loose inhabitants if you haven't upgraded your Arc. The players have characters with their own goals but each session the have the opportunity to spend their own time and resources to improve the Arc. They also get experience points if they help the Arc. www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/6xmejj/mutant_year_zero_is_septembers_game_of_the_month/I really like that mechanic, and really want to play the game to see if it plays out like I think it will. Yea, sorry abut not getting the game run during my vacation but I just couldn't find enough players. I can try to run a PbP game if you want but that wouldn't be quite the same thing even if it's would work. If the demigods discord game gets finished...
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fredrix
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Aug 27, 2018 23:45:39 GMT -8
Much to comment on in this episode: Magic_Octopus - uncommonman has already mentioned Mutant Year Zero, but the same company is about to release Forbidden Lands - a Year Zero Engine hex-crawl RPG, in a post-fantasy-apocalypse setting. Just to be clear, that’s a fantasy setting that has had its own fantasy apocalypse- The Blood Mist. I am doing a “where I read...” on my blog. The first part of it is here: fictionsuit.org/2018/08/18/forbidden-lands-introduction/It seems to me your characters don’t want too much back story. Forbidden Lands ask you to generate a character with a problem and a pride. The problem is the story hook, the pride a mechanical device that allows an advantageous re-roll. Importantly the players are encouraged to review their problem regularly, it might get solved after all but also you might through play discover a better story hook. As Tappy indicated just surving in the harsh environment, food, water etc can be motivation enough and Forbidden Lsnds has easy to play entertaining mechanics around that. I am sure I had something to say about Steve’s success story, but I can’t recall it now. Throughly agree with andreasdavour, setting appropriate food is a good thing. We rotate hosts, and whenever I host, I try and cook a meal that fits the game we are playing Venison sausages when we have a Baratheon hostage in Game of Thrones, Tagine and Green Rose tea for Coriolis; or, Sushi and white tea for L5R. Sometimes (but rarely - we don’t force it) the meal becomes part of the play. When my character in Tales From The Loop was broken, we went to my Grandma’s for Ärtsoppa - Swedish split pea and ham hock soup. I would be very interested to buy Tappy’s L5R recipe book. But ... that discussion evolved into tappy and plusx2a saying there is no substitute for players doing the GM the honour of reading the background material for a setting. I can not disagree with this enough. Players should learn from experiencing the background. Not by reading reams of notes beforehand. Yes, research may be rewarded with better characters and more fun. But their experience of the world through play should prompt the research, not the other way around.
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Post by azhreivep on Aug 28, 2018 1:59:05 GMT -8
... whenever I host, I try and cook a meal that fits the game we are playing Venison sausages when we have a Baratheon hostage in Game of Thrones, Tagine and Green Rose tea for Coriolis; or, Sushi and white tea for L5R. Sometimes (but rarely - we don’t force it) the meal becomes part of the play. When my character in Tales From The Loop was broken, we went to my Grandma’s for Ärtsoppa - Swedish split pea and ham hock soup. And there you have an example of the problems with this idea as well: There isn't a person in my group that wouldn't find at least half of t his utterly revolting, and would result in some combination of players going hungry, players bringing their own food to avoid that ... stuff ... and cooks being upset by their hard work being reacted to so negatively. Especially the sushi, ick. At least two people would have to leave the room to avoid being physically ill until the stink aired out. Unless you know everybody's tastes (and current diets, and allergies, and religious restrictions, and stuff I'm not thinking of right now) and they all match up (good luck with that), this is just asking for annoyance and potential hurt feelings at said annoyance. But ... that discussion evolved into tappy and plusx2a saying there is no substitute for players doing the GM the honour of reading the background material for a setting. I can not disagree with this enough. Players should learn from experiencing the background. Not by reading reams of notes beforehand. Yes, research may be rewarded with better characters and more fun. But their experience of the world through play should prompt the research, not the other way around. And I can't disagree with this more. Reading the setting background isn't that hard. Having basic information that most characters of the appropriate age would have from the start is a lot more fun than having to play the idiot asking who the mayor is, if you have a king (nope, it's a queen, actually), and whether that tiny winged person that just buzzed you is shocking, or just part of heading to town. Spending your first sessions basically playing a two-year old, pointing at everything and asking what it is, gets really old, really fast. And that's without even getting into settings that have major cultural differences from the one you're used to, like L5R. Ooof.
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fredrix
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Aug 28, 2018 3:35:36 GMT -8
Well, obviously I guess, my group have diverse and cultured palettes 🙂 But sure it’s not a thing to spring on a group without checking beforehand. And it’s worth pointing out that I recommend you only try this if you CAN actually cook. One of my group can’t, so it’s pizza when we’re round his place. And another can cook but only a limited repertoire, so it’s more likely to be chilli, chicken casserole, or suchi if he buys it in.
Othe other matter. I still hold to the opinion that you discover the world by experiencing it. Video games don’t expect you to read about the world before playing, they are structured to introduce you to it. Telling somebody they should read all about Rokugan if they want to join your campaign is gatekeeping.
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Aug 28, 2018 10:30:47 GMT -8
If SM Stirling had a massive appendix did he ever have to get it removed?
I'll show myself out.
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tappy
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Post by tappy on Aug 28, 2018 22:47:37 GMT -8
Othe other matter. I still hold to the opinion that you discover the world by experiencing it. Video games don’t expect you to read about the world before playing, they are structured to introduce you to it. Telling somebody they should read all about Rokugan if they want to join your campaign is gatekeeping. Video games don't allow players to make cultural mistakes. Even the most open would video games have every interaction solidly on the rails. Players don't have to understand cultural context when the game ensures that it is present. I think you are presenting my position a bit ingenuously when you say "All about Rokugan". I don't demand that people sit and read all the lore from all the books. THere is no test to see if they can play in my game. In fact, really knowing the history down pat can be a detriment in my campaigns, because my Rokugan is different than main book world. What is important is that the players read enough about the world to gain cultural context. That a samurai is first and foremost a servant, that sincerity is more persuasive than proof, that the world is feudal with these 7 quite diverse cultures that do not see eye to eye. That honor is more important than life. It doesn't take long to get that. I suggest people read about Rokugan so they understand that, and I very much want them to read the "way of" book for their clan, so they understand the cultural context of "what is a good samurai" in the Crane clan as opposed to the Dragon clan... or the Crab. The cultural expectations put on these samurai are all very very different, and whether the player chooses to go with them or against them, the knowledge of what is expected is SUPER important in L5R. I think I can expect players to do some reading that I give them. Especially because I have read all the books and learned all the rules and created my own world etc., I think they can read a bit about where they are playing. Doing a little reading isn't gatekeeping. ESPECIALLY if I am running a court game (like winter court). I would never want someone to jump in dry into a winter court game. Ever ever ever.
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fredrix
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Aug 29, 2018 0:22:06 GMT -8
In fact, really knowing the history down pat can be a detriment in my campaigns, because my Rokugan is different than main book world. Preach it, because of an archer’s exploding tens, and running the Hare Castle adventure with 4th ed battle rules, the Scorpion are a pariah clan in my Rokugan. Their Lands fought over by Lion and Crane, while they seek out and destroy the Kolat to regain their honor. The shit I took off a group of 3rd ed players for breaking with the story... That a samurai is first and foremost a servant, that sincerity is more persuasive than proof, that the world is feudal with these 7 quite diverse cultures that do not see eye to eye. That honor is more important than life. It doesn't take long to get that. No, just a couple of lines that you can say verbally, so why make them read pages? I think we will have agree to disagree on this one. As a GM, I am very happy to warn players “such and such an action in this society would have these consequences”. I like to think I am a bit better than a video game in that my players learn about the whys and wherefores as they play, and don’t get frustrated because their character won’t kill the quest giver, no matter how much they hit the buttons. It’s funny, I remember arguing with someone here (saelorn was it? Or creative cowboy?) who would not let any players read any background, or even the rules. They had to discover the whole world and it’s ohysics through play. I have nothing against them reading the background obviously. But I don’t make it a condition of play. Even for a Winter Court game.
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Post by azhreivep on Aug 29, 2018 3:51:52 GMT -8
Othe other matter. I still hold to the opinion that you discover the world by experiencing it. Video games don’t expect you to read about the world before playing, they are structured to introduce you to it. Telling somebody they should read all about Rokugan if they want to join your campaign is gatekeeping. GMs, even the most prep-lite, improv-focused of the lot, tend to put quite a bit of effort into running a game, to say nothing of the prep-heavy sort. Asking players to put in a little effort to learn about the world they're supposed to be a part of, that in most game they are supposed to have been a part of for their entire lives, is not asking much. And if asking for that sort of minimal diligence is gatekeeping, then maybe it's not always a bad thing to keep the gates.
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Post by ericfromnj on Aug 29, 2018 15:25:55 GMT -8
For small groups, mysticsquid or whatever his or her name was mentioned combats being too swingy.
Make combats about something other than death fights. Maybe it's for first blood, or whomever gets away with the macguffin, just make it about something other than death.
Be prepared for consequences of your PCs losing a fight. Have that escape adventure handy in case they are captured. Know what the bad guys are going to do with the macguffin if they get it.
This will help with swingy combats because it doesn't become something you have to panic about if combat swings the wrong way.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 22:48:35 GMT -8
But ... that discussion evolved into tappy and plusx2a saying there is no substitute for players doing the GM the honour of reading the background material for a setting. I can not disagree with this enough. Players should learn from experiencing the background. Not by reading reams of notes beforehand. Yes, research may be rewarded with better characters and more fun. But their experience of the world through play should prompt the research, not the other way around. So other peoples way of running games is wrong and yours is right? Who are you, the gaming police? You don't have to play with them at their table if you don't want to put in the effort. No one is being forced to do anything.
There is nothing wrong with seeking a deep experience in a game and asking players to be invested. GM's often do copious amounts of work to prepare a game, asking the players to do some reading is not at all out of line. It's asking them to invest their time and energy in the game. Reading is a capability almost all gamers have, so it's not exactly excluding anyone. At least, it's not gatekeeping any more than setting a minimum session length. If you don't have time to read or play, that sucks, but it's not someone else's problem. Someone else shouldn't have to run a shorter game or have less prep required because you don't have or don't wish to make the time to be included.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 31, 2018 6:35:11 GMT -8
You guys need to block each other.
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