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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 1, 2012 10:23:51 GMT -8
How deep was that head sized hole they obviously lived in since the early 1980's. Well, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I believe that is why the talent does not stay. We, my company, did not want to continue wasting our time with them after a certain point, after which the executive in charge left the company in exasperation, expressed to us in eMail. That is why they circle the wagons using rhetorical rehash in 5e; and have extended the brand 4 times - which is never a good idea except for the odd exception to the rule. Lots of case studies in the marketer's graveyard about brand extensions killing the company, including TSR. I am not so quick to jump to the defense of WotC. They are a strategic business unit of Hasbro. Think of them as a franchise. WotC is your local Mickey D's. They have agreements with HQ and report on HQ's consolidated balance sheet. Note the lack of detail Hasbro reports from WotC? Like any franchise, the WotC has to buy its cola from Coke, its meat from HQ and keep the toilets clean and the grounds for lawsuit down. But the rest is up to them. You get a booger in your burger... that's the SBU! WotC has a great amount of leeway. The only complaint they have voiced, to my knowledge, targets revenues and expenses. Creativity in product design all the way to marketing is all WotC. HQ rubber stamps that stuff. UNFORTUNATELY, Hasbro hasn't a better clue what to do about RPGs than WotC. So you have the blind (WotC) leading the blind (Hasbro). It filters down and it filters up. The only thing Hasbro cares to know about D&D 5e is the monthly Profit and Loss statement and the product launch schedule. Sadly, they all understand brand equity from the MBA school they went to. But they do not understand the hobby the brand represents. Makes me angry such people have jobs in the first place, but I have always hated waste.
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 1, 2012 13:29:08 GMT -8
How deep was that head sized hole they obviously lived in since the early 1980's. Sadly, they all understand brand equity from the MBA school they went to. But they do not understand the hobby the brand represents. Makes me angry such people have jobs in the first place, but I have always hated waste. My turn to say amen brother. I currently work in a high stress job in healthcare that to be honest I'm totally fed up with and burnt out from. I've two professional qualifications - one being a higher degree in psychology - and I'd give my arse teeth make my favourite hobby a job and contribute towards making it grow. Not to make a fortune, I'm used to being a wage slave, just for the satisfaction . . . When I was a kid Gen Con was a sort of Mecca . . . Now I realise it doesn't have to be Gen Con it could be any con but try and find one nearby in the UK? - Unless you live down south . . . yet where is it coldest, wettest and darkest? the north. The closest we get is the Manchester Comic Con and that's been merged with some sports memorabilia god-knows-what because they obviously don't have enough faith in the comic/gaming/cosplay people in their own right. What common ground does a steam punk cosplayer have with a knuckle dragging Manchester United fanboy looking for a collectible pube from Wayne Rooney's latest hair graft? (if I've offended any Manchester United fans out there . . . Sorry but I'm not sorry . . . Cause I really don't give a fuck about soccer . . . Cricket that's a much better game as you don't have to actually watch it, just check the score every now and again between combat rounds on the gaming table ;-P ).
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Jul 3, 2012 10:20:16 GMT -8
What cheeses me off about the WotC PDF ban is that now they'll never release legal PDFs of all the Star Wars Saga Edition books. I've recently become interested in that system, but getting my hands on hard copies of the books could be massively expensive, and there will never be a reprint, since they no longer hold the Star Wars rights ... *sigh*
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 3, 2012 10:52:58 GMT -8
What cheeses me off about the WotC PDF ban is that now they'll never release legal PDFs of all the Star Wars Saga Edition books. I've recently become interested in that system, but getting my hands on hard copies of the books could be massively expensive, and there will never be a reprint, since they no longer hold the Star Wars rights ... *sigh* And so you are drawn to the dark side of the Internet . . . Let your anger grow . . .
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Post by jazzisblues on Jul 4, 2012 9:58:53 GMT -8
An observation about trying to make a living from gaming. Or perhaps more accurately a word of caution.
I love gaming I love writing I love writing for games and writing stuff about games. One might think that it would be a natural thing for me to gravitate towards writing for the games that I play and trying to turn that into a profitable venture somehow. However, I have a bit of concern or reticence about the idea because the instant I try to make a gainful living from a hobby it becomes a job, and with a job comes stress, and deadlines and doing things you have to do rather than doing things you're inspired to do and it is altogether possible that at that point it ceases to be fun. I'm sure for some people it remains fun, Shane Hensley, Bill Roper, and Steve Jackson all work in gaming at a high level and all still seem to enjoy the games for themselves as well. I just also know that it is a factor that makes me think twice about the idea.
Just my 2 krupplenicks on the subject, your mileage may of course vary.
JiB
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 4, 2012 10:20:16 GMT -8
JiB You hit the nail squarely on the head with that observation. That single salient point I believe holds back many of us from making our hobby our vocation - maybe I'm just getting older and having a mid-life crisis but part of me is beginning to think that maybe, just maybe, gaming is different as a labour of love . . . I really enjoyed doing my honours degree, I love research and learning and study and for all the pressure of having a full time job and meeting my academic commitments I ENJOYED the hell out of it My only concern really is the actual market sustainability. Until there is a radical change in fortune and proper growth in the industry I don't think it can support too many hobbyists turned pro - and in so may things its being in the right place at the right time with the right pitch to the right people (10% talent 90% luck). Some of the shite awful modules, or however one prefers to refer to them nowadays, that have gone to press is testament to this. Free lancing is an option but the reason big companies like free lancers is because they can fucked over so easily - ask Alan Moore when he reflects on the comic industry (a market that closely parallels that of the table top RPG industry with respect to the difficulties it faces and the impact large big brand publishing houses can have on the little guys)
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Jul 4, 2012 11:09:54 GMT -8
I picked up a few PDFs back when they were legal--Drow of the Underdark, for example, which has been very handy in the drow-based adventure I'm currently running. Had I known they were all going away, I would have bought more. *sigh*
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Post by jazzisblues on Jul 4, 2012 12:39:51 GMT -8
JiB You hit the nail squarely on the head with that observation. That single salient point I believe holds back many of us from making our hobby our vocation - maybe I'm just getting older and having a mid-life crisis but part of me is beginning to think that maybe, just maybe, gaming is different as a labour of love . . . I really enjoyed doing my honours degree, I love research and learning and study and for all the pressure of having a full time job and meeting my academic commitments I ENJOYED the hell out of it My only concern really is the actual market sustainability. Until there is a radical change in fortune and proper growth in the industry I don't think it can support too many hobbyists turned pro - and in so may things its being in the right place at the right time with the right pitch to the right people (10% talent 90% luck). Some of the shite awful modules, or however one prefers to refer to them nowadays, that have gone to press is testament to this. Free lancing is an option but the reason big companies like free lancers is because they can fucked over so easily - ask Alan Moore when he reflects on the comic industry (a market that closely parallels that of the table top RPG industry with respect to the difficulties it faces and the impact large big brand publishing houses can have on the little guys) I absolutely agree in principal, I would say the math is a bit different though 10% talent + 20% luck + 60% just won't fucking give up. JiB
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 4, 2012 12:49:59 GMT -8
JiB You hit the nail squarely on the head with that observation. That single salient point I believe holds back many of us from making our hobby our vocation - maybe I'm just getting older and having a mid-life crisis but part of me is beginning to think that maybe, just maybe, gaming is different as a labour of love . . . I really enjoyed doing my honours degree, I love research and learning and study and for all the pressure of having a full time job and meeting my academic commitments I ENJOYED the hell out of it My only concern really is the actual market sustainability. Until there is a radical change in fortune and proper growth in the industry I don't think it can support too many hobbyists turned pro - and in so may things its being in the right place at the right time with the right pitch to the right people (10% talent 90% luck). Some of the shite awful modules, or however one prefers to refer to them nowadays, that have gone to press is testament to this. Free lancing is an option but the reason big companies like free lancers is because they can fucked over so easily - ask Alan Moore when he reflects on the comic industry (a market that closely parallels that of the table top RPG industry with respect to the difficulties it faces and the impact large big brand publishing houses can have on the little guys) I absolutely agree in principal, I would say the math is a bit different though 10% talent + 20% luck + 60% just won't fucking give up. JiB Then we come back to WOTC and their removal of PDF's this gives an into the market for the smaller operator because one of the heavy hitters isn't even competing. With Lulu also providing 'print on demand' it's a slightly better chance for someone with a good idea and plenty of perseverance. Though I'd recommend getting adobe PDF maker proper rather than relying on PDF export from a word or pages application : good indexing/bookmarking goes along way to making a PDF more user friendly and therefore viable as a replacement for ink and paper.
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Post by daeglan on Jul 4, 2012 14:15:44 GMT -8
Because pulling down the legal PDFs has stopped them from being available.... oh wait in less than 2 minutes I could download the entire library of stuff.
You make more money if you give people legal avenues to buy your stuff in the format they want. Piracy will happen. You can't stop it. So you are better off focusing on your customers. Do not treat your customers like criminals. They will appreciate it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 7:37:27 GMT -8
Yeah, it's pretty cock-punch worthy, IMO. Looks like ... they pulled everything. I didn't realize until sometime in 2011, when I couldn't find my downloads and tried to regrab 'em, and couldn't. It was mostly the old, ooooold stuff (white books) that I wanted, books I had never had a physical copy of: There was a thread on enWorld a while back that said something to the effect of WOTC "Having plans" for all of the older materials. There was speculation of a re-release of 2nd edition materials i think. Trying to find a link to the thread EDIT: Found the Link...it's HERE
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 5, 2012 8:24:22 GMT -8
Yeah, it's pretty cock-punch worthy, IMO. Looks like ... they pulled everything. I didn't realize until sometime in 2011, when I couldn't find my downloads and tried to regrab 'em, and couldn't. It was mostly the old, ooooold stuff (white books) that I wanted, books I had never had a physical copy of: There was a thread on enWorld a while back that said something to the effect of WOTC "Having plans" for all of the older materials. There was speculation of a re-release of 2nd edition materials i think. Trying to find a link to the thread EDIT: Found the Link...it's HEREYeah, it's called a torrent file . . . Costs the price of an ADSL connection and a little patience . . . The entire back catalogue in one go and not a single penny/cent/rupee/ kronor/euro/etc goes to the publishing rights holders. This clever marketing strategy has been bought to you the good folks at WOTC.
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 5, 2012 9:17:28 GMT -8
There was a thread on enWorld a while back that said something to the effect of WOTC "Having plans" for all of the older materials. There was speculation of a re-release of 2nd edition materials i think. Trying to find a link to the thread EDIT: Found the Link...it's HEREYeah, it's called a torrent file . . . Costs the price of an ADSL connection and a little patience . . . The entire back catalogue in one go and not a single penny/cent/rupee/ kronor/euro/etc goes to the publishing rights holders. This clever marketing strategy has been bought to you the good folks at WOTC. Now, let's be fair here. These torrents were all available even when WotC was selling the PDFs on DriveThru. Whether or not the PDFs are legitimately available, there will be people pirating them as well. That's just a fact of life. Now, was WotC's decision to pull the back catalogue a good one? IMO, No. Was it short sighted and a little myopic? Again, IMO, yeah. But that's their right to do so. People were given time to get their copies of the PDFs when they were taken down. DTR sent out notices that it was happening. Hell, I hadn't gotten a chance to buy any of them, and even I got an email about their being discontinued.
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 5, 2012 10:08:23 GMT -8
Yeah, it's called a torrent file . . . Costs the price of an ADSL connection and a little patience . . . The entire back catalogue in one go and not a single penny/cent/rupee/ kronor/euro/etc goes to the publishing rights holders. This clever marketing strategy has been bought to you the good folks at WOTC. Now, let's be fair here. These torrents were all available even when WotC was selling the PDFs on DriveThru. Whether or not the PDFs are legitimately available, there will be people pirating them as well. That's just a fact of life. Now, was WotC's decision to pull the back catalogue a good one? IMO, No. Was it short sighted and a little myopic? Again, IMO, yeah. But that's their right to do so. People were given time to get their copies of the PDFs when they were taken down. DTR sent out notices that it was happening. Hell, I hadn't gotten a chance to buy any of them, and even I got an email about their being discontinued. To be honest I always bought stuff in hard copy, there is still nothing like the feel of paper and a book. But, as I have admitted before, my books are motherfuck old now and delicate (my first PBH was printed in 1980 and it's had a hard life) . . . So I went to PDFs to preserve what I have. WOTC had already discontinued PDF's by that point because I have only recently returned to gaming,mike so many, after a long hiatus (though I continued to buy and read different systems during that time . . . ). eBay has been pillaged for what it can give and the fact is those supplements I'm after suffer the same problem - age and the irrefutable law of entropy. WOTC has a fuck ton of stuff under its publishing rights and I can understand the cost benefit of re-releasing it in hard copy. But history is rotting away there . . . Whose old enough to remember SPI. WOTC own all of that courtesy of TSR and TSR pissed that gold mine right down the sink . . . I've got the old SPI War of the Ring, it took 3 years and loads of patience on eBay to get a copy that was still readable and playable. If you've never played it it's enough to say that it was a fantastic strategy war game set in middle earth that accurately portrays the war of the ring as Tolkien wrote it - I've never really been happy with the movie licence spin offs because of my experience with this more faithful version. That's one game from a huge back catalogue of classics . . . Including Dragonquest. If you've read James Barclay and his Raven novels you're basically reading a novelisation of his experiences in a Dragonquest campaign (nb: for those familiar with these books his character in those campaigns was Hirad). It's not just the pulling of the PDF's it's WOTC's whole attitude towards its market. If revenue is a problem then it seem that given the OSR (that only seems to be gaining ground) why not exploit this interest . . . It's not like they have to invest in the actual creation of material they already have . . . They just have to make it available. I hate to quote corny movies but "build it and they will come . . . ", id est "sell it and they will buy . . . "
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Post by jazzisblues on Jul 5, 2012 11:19:33 GMT -8
I absolutely agree in principal, I would say the math is a bit different though 10% talent + 20% luck + 60% just won't fucking give up. JiB Then we come back to WOTC and their removal of PDF's this gives an into the market for the smaller operator because one of the heavy hitters isn't even competing. With Lulu also providing 'print on demand' it's a slightly better chance for someone with a good idea and plenty of perseverance. Though I'd recommend getting adobe PDF maker proper rather than relying on PDF export from a word or pages application : good indexing/bookmarking goes along way to making a PDF more user friendly and therefore viable as a replacement for ink and paper. When it comes to writing something that one intends to sell I have two VERY STRONG recommendations. 1. Pay for editing. A good editor is worth their weight in well something valuable. 2. Pay for professional layout ... See reason for editors. 3. Unless you're a really good artist, pay for art too. In short do what you're good at and pay for what you're not. It will eat into your profits a bit but will pay off in the long run in terms or both good reviews and more importantly sales. Cheers, JiB
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