|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 30, 2012 7:40:48 GMT -8
I was invited to comment on the state of RPGs on Saturday - God help you get me started talking if you think I write long posts! My comments summed as the RPG industry business leaders (that would be WotC) need to be responsible for bringing more people into the hobby. They need to be responsible for growing the overall RPG market. And I assert this wearing my Hasbro Shareholder's wide-brimmed fedora, not my RPGs smelly fanboy T-shirt and cap. No disrespect to your sweaty selves.... or my sweaty self. ;D I think most of us lack the capability to do that job (for free); or lack the time to do that job (for free); and some of us would adversely affect that task, and even compound the problem were we told to go proselytize. It was a 90-minute interview and invoked my love for RPGs and Public Relations, a dangerous cocktail for dialogue, admittedly. You already know my view from my posts here, which was background prep for the journalist. Some time ago, Stu made mention of Bernays in one podcast, referencing his PR technique to encourage the consumption of cigarettes with women, very counter-culture behaviour of the time. Women who smoked were ostracized from polite society, which was a problem for the client who wanted to increase his market size and sales from these new smokers. This segment was not easily accessible, especially philosophically, because the widely prevailing social attitudes were constraints that everyone accepted (or had to accept): smokers, non-smokers, male and female. Understand, if you were a female smoker, you either smoked in private or you accepted and rationalized your social banishment as being from a society of assholes and sheeple. The story has lost its power since those days, when women were not permitted to cancel out their husbands vote, less than 50 years after slavery was abolished in America and with years to come before the civil rights movement. The problem has lost its weight since those days well before anyone could think about a woman having the right to her body and choice of wife. But the social attitudes were a powerful barrier to entry to the market for the cigarette manufacturer. And so Bernays’ Torches of Freedom. I don’t know if it is because I have worked in this field (perception management) for so long, but I clearly see a parallel in this story between RPGs and cigarettes; WotC and Lucky Strike. I actively hunt new-to-the-hobby players and I always get comments reflecting the social ostracism of “gamers.” There have been comments on the podcast that strongly suggest to me there is a stereotype of gamers in current usage beyond my local experience. And my local experience is that mainstream people ostracize gamers (prior to meeting them; I am referring to the perception rather than reality). So how would you sell RPGs to people outside the hobby without directly selling RPGs? The question Bernays had to solve was: how do you sell cigarettes to women/society without selling cigarettes? So, for the TLDR: I would like to read and participate in a discussion about the following question: How would you bring people not currently into RPGs (possibly the same people adverse to RPGs due to society’s perception of those with some form of RPG Asperger's who populate bad games) into the hobby; enjoying the hobby every week or fortnight? What do you suggest to increase the RPG hobby – to infuse new blood into the consumer market. And if you suggest anything like “RPGs,” - for example just bringing them to a convention and they will see the greatness - you obviously do not understand the question. For Bernays’ client, smoking became a powerful symbol of something everyone in society, not just gamers, could get behind. I would like a discussion that considers how this lesson can apply to our hobby. I want to hear from you.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jul 30, 2012 8:19:04 GMT -8
Well . . . Not strictly related to recruitment but more a question from observation (donning my psychologists hat, which I imagine would be a fez) - why are gamers (RPG specific) perceived as socially awkward when they indulge in a hobby that by necessity requires social interaction?. This includes a greater tolerance of differences and, possibly, a better understanding of what we call 'awareness of mind' (the understanding individuals have that others are unique self contained 'minds' with different perspectives . . . Piaget most famously demonstrated it as a developmental milestone in childhood) . . . As an anecdotal observation RPG gamers tend to be more open to new ideas, more tolerant of differences and empathic towards those who are perceived as having a difference from the current majority (this includes greater social/racial/gender/sexual preference and cultural sensitivity . . . where taking the piss through good natured humour is a sign of comfort with these internalised mores) The rest I'll have to mull over for a bit first
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 30, 2012 8:44:28 GMT -8
Well . . . Not strictly related to recruitment but more a question from observation (donning my psychologists hat, which I imagine would be a fez) - why are gamers (RPG specific) perceived as socially awkward when they indulge in a hobby that by necessity requires social interaction?. Vividness. Salience. The anecdote can be stronger than empirical data often times, especially when it gets reinforced by other anecdotes. This is how B.A.D.D. gained traction against D&D in the 80's. It had nothing to do with reality. Perception had more traction than "objective" reality because of how vivid and how salient the opposition stories were. And for that reason, those same stories would get front page play today... sadly. Check out gamer humour, because we are laughing (or criticising) those same things that society shuns from our group. P.S. "Social" ranks lowest in benefits from gaming, according to gamer responses to online polls. Leeeeeee Rhoooooooy Jennnnnn-kins! Asshats by any other name. Can of Fabreeze, anyone? And the take away most people easily recall because of our passion: a group brimming with Rules Lawyers - the same assholes everyone in an office wants to escape from.
|
|
jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
FEVAH!!!!
Posts: 218
|
Post by jfever on Jul 30, 2012 9:41:27 GMT -8
Already, with only 3 posts in this thread, I think I may be a bit out of my league commenting on this topic. But this is a "brain storming" thread, so here it goes: RPGs, at least how I have seen it from personal experience, gives power to the power"less". This can range from the child who get's bullied at school for not wearing a cool t-shirt, to the adult who hates his/her asshat boss who rides him/her all day. People can use RPGs as a tool to escape and gain acceptance through joining a group of like minded individuals. But, there is the minority of table top gamers that are living lives where they feel more in control, and table top gaming fulfills their imagination rather than a void of sadness in their life. Because of the "powerless" majority, it is amazing when we hear that people like Stephen Colbert and Vin Diesel were hardcore DnD players. They are successful people who participated in a "powerless" person's hobby. I think that in order to make table top gaming be a tool/symbol is to link people's success in life to their experiences in table top gaming. Mormonism is trying to do something like that right now. If any of you haven't seen the "I'm a Mormon" advertisements, here is one: www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_wLYveIaaQ*I'M NOT MENTIONING MORMONISM AS A NEGATIVE, OR TRYING TO MAKE PEOPLE CONVERT TO MORMONISM. I AM NOT MORMON. SIMPLY ADDRESSING THEIR ADVERTISEMENT CAMPAIGN STRATEGIES* The video above is 3:31 seconds long. From 0:00 to 3:21 is a inspirational story about a family. It's also told by two successful people that have their own businesses, their own house, and living great, productive lives. Not until 3:22 do you even hear the word "Mormon". Table-top gaming can be shown as a positive through similar advertising, but I think table top gaming can do one better. Religion is such a touchy subject that the "I'm a Mormon" campaign, to make sure that you watch the whole video, must avoid saying anything about Mormonism until the last 10 seconds of the video. Table-top gaming has the ability to come right out and say "I'm a lawyer who first learned my love of learning rules from table-top gaming" (hence the term "rules lawyer") or "I'm a business man who came over my fear of talking in front of people because of table top gaming". In the documentary Darkon, a documentary about Larping, there is man who talks about how the game helped him become a better person. His parents also talk about how he was a shy child who gained confidence through gaming. I couldn't find the clip of the movie, so if you go to 1:20 of this clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BHWfXd9Ky8 You will see that man briefly talk about the game affecting him. In summary, table top gaming must be portrayed as a tool that creates successful people and behaviors. Then it will be seen as a symbol of success. I hope that made some sense and wasn't boring as fuck.
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 30, 2012 9:55:15 GMT -8
I think that in order to make table top gaming be a tool/symbol is to link people's success in life to their experiences in table top gaming. Mormonism is trying to do something like that right now. If any of you haven't seen the "I'm a Mormon" advertisements, here is one: www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_wLYveIaaQ This is exactly the kind of stunt I would pull... brilliant catch jfever. In summary, table top gaming must be portrayed as a tool that creates successful people and behaviors. Then it will be seen as a symbol of success. W007! I love reading this! Brilliant observation. So who is going to do this... I mean, other than WotC because it is not WotC's responsibility?
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jul 30, 2012 10:44:44 GMT -8
Already, with only 3 posts in this thread, I think I may be a bit out of my league commenting on this topic. But this is a "brain storming" thread, so here it goes: I hope that made some sense and wasn't boring as fuck. Brilliant . . . A) no one is an expert even in a room full of experts . . . The unconventional thought process (not bound by traditional assumptions) is more often than not the next paradigm . . . Until it too is later challenged by another contender (dialectical conflict theory courtesy of Karl Marx). B) far from boring and absolutely insightful . . .if only we had the monetary resources of the Mormon Church to launch such a campaign. Oh wait WoTC/Hasbro might have . . . Do think they might . . . Well you know? . . . Nah they wouldn't would they (sarcastic snigger) . . .
|
|
jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
FEVAH!!!!
Posts: 218
|
Post by jfever on Jul 30, 2012 11:19:34 GMT -8
Honestly, I think the average joe is the person to do it. Someone who has the gumption to take a video camera around and video tape people they know that lead productive, successful lives and throw it up on youtube. Or, someone with a degree in child psychology that approaches role playing games as a teaching tool for children and gets a grant from the government or something. Either way, it would be someone that would be willing to put in a lot of time and not see a dime for it. I don't think Hasbro cares enough to promote the hobby. They just see dollar signs, not people.
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 30, 2012 11:30:36 GMT -8
I don't think Hasbro cares enough to promote the hobby. They just see dollar signs, not people. Not to side track the topic but I will just point out, whether I am right or just think I am, WotC would earn more money from new people coming to RPGs (you mean like DnD, right?) rather than to sell harder to their diminishing model train hobby paradigm of a plateau'd and dying market. Or as my mama told me: there are other fish in the sea. You just gotta go out an get'em. People do not have the time to game in this economy and at our age. They're not about to start making ads for RPGs for the mainstream media. Just saying. I do like reading your ideas. I think they're spot on. Let's get some more from folks.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jul 30, 2012 12:37:58 GMT -8
I've been mulling over for ages how to give the hobby legitimacy through psychology research (specifically my preferred discipline social psychology - for those in 'the know' I subscribe more to social social psychology as opposed to psychological social psychology . . . it does make sense it'd just be too far off topic to explain . . .). It's not so much the ideas for relevant research . . . or a study design (I've thought of several) . . . it's coming up with a study one could sell to the holders of research grants . . . in these economically tightened times that's a very hard sell indeed The best one could hope for is corporate sponsorship . . . in a shrinking market place with the one player that could afford it being the least interested . . . catch 22 I'd envision offering empirical evidence of the positive and social benefits of RPG's in promoting the positive development of youth and/or as a tool in tackling problematic behaviours/development. I think, with careful consideration it could be seen as a useful tool within the psychodynamic paradigm . . . offering a vehicle with which to 'reveal' possible subconscious processes in an individual or as a method to further explore the interpretive subjective experience (qualia) studied in existential psychology. So, an educational, diagnostic and therapeutic aide. Certainly my anecdotal experience of RPG's prompted an adolescent me to broaden my intellectual horizons through the acquisition of knowledge which improved play which in turn reinforced this positive behaviour therefore encouraging me to further acquire more knowledge etc (Skinner's 'operant conditioning' in real world practice?) . . .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 16:08:21 GMT -8
I'm sorry guys, but I find some of your responses very amusing.
I'm Paco, the guy who interviewed Richard for my podcast a few days ago. The whole thing (minus que bad audio and pre/post interview stuff) will be out soon, so watch this space!
First of all let me make my position clear: I believe it is up to the hobbyists (that's us) to brig people into the hobby, and it is up to the publishers (big or small) to bring people into their games.
Why would WotC EVER want to spend money in getting people into games that will render no profit to them? They are the biggest, so what? Do you see Coca-Cola advocating for the consumption of "carbonated drinks with caffeine"? No. They bring people to their territory, nothing else.
Why should WotC be any different? The hard, but likely, answer would be "because it suits us that way. It saves us time and money".
I'm sorry guys, that's just not good enough.
Gamers are perceived as socially awkward because we have been. I don't know you guys, but I wasn't "the cool guy". I was the bullied gay kid who wanted anything but to be surrounded by my piers. I wanted to be reading about dragons and playing games with my friends. Away from everyone else.
I was socially awkward. And that image has perpetuated for a reason, even if it is a misrepresentation of us. The reason is that there are still a lot of socially inept people out there who are the "ultra-geek". Go to any convention and you'll find them. Are they sociable? Yes. Are they sociable outside their geek circles? Probably not.
And I will venture say that people can find us uncomfortable at times because we think too much. We come out with ideas and responses they would have never considered because we have our imagination and lateral thinking skills very well sharpened. But that's just one reason. I am sure there are many.
Oh, and we are a passionate bunch. Very, very passionate. And vehement. And belligerent.
Proof of that is the amount of rude talk in forums. Yes, some of that rude talk comes from assholes, no doubt about that. But assholes can also be passionate, vehement and belligerent.
Proof of that passion is how things get out of proportion so quickly. Just a few post and people are already talking about shooting adverts and carrying psychological studies that cement our game as a tool for good.
We have a say in Spain: "Matar moscas a canyonazos" (To kill flies with cannon-fire). It is used to represent when a supreme effort is being made (and wasted) to achieve something as trivial and simple as to kill a fly.
Sorry guys, but we don't need movies. We don't need psychological studies. There are a few of those already (Shared Fantasies, published in the late 70s is still current, as far as I am concern, and the Department of Education in Spain carried out some studies recently that proved that the use or RPG would be a fantastic method for teaching history and literature).
We need to make time to promote our hobby. Yes, we are all tight time wise. But hey, I have two jobs (well, one full time and one volunteering as a psychotherapist a few hours a week) and I still make time to look after my website, podcast and YouTube channel. And play with my friends and read books. I am nothing special... in fact my greatest talent is mediocrity, so if I can do it, surely people can do something too.
It doesn't take a movie. It just takes advertising a gaming group with a leaflet in your public library - or similar - and then create a mailing list to start a virtual club. I started it that way 9 years ago when I moved to the city where I live. We have 120 members now and, at least 10 active groups that met because of that mailing list.
There is no need to make things HUUUUUGEEEEEE from the start with movies or adverts of anything. Just plant the seed and watch it grow. Water your project with a dose of voice+enthusiasm, support your local game store and get talking, proudly, amongst everyone and anyone you know.
If we all do that, the hobby will grow. Fast!
|
|
jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
FEVAH!!!!
Posts: 218
|
Post by jfever on Jul 30, 2012 17:31:45 GMT -8
I'm glad we could amuse you
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jul 31, 2012 0:25:07 GMT -8
Whoa Stop right there . . . A study from the late 1970's IS NOT STILL RELEVANT. That's not an opinion or a belief . . . It's a simple FACT. Methodologies have changed drastically since then . . . Psychology itself has moved on significantly: please refer to the cognitive revolution in psychology . . . The 1970's was still dominated by the predominately behaviourist paradigm which made way for Cognitive Behaviourialists in the 1980's. The method of counselling known as Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is result of that revolution (though the truth is it was a refinement of Rationale Emotive Therapy rather than a new therapy). Discourse Analysis and other social psychology methodologies either didn't exist in the 1970's or were still being defined and developed. There were two very good reasons I made explicit in wanting to use RPG's in research
A) as an education aide . . . Empirical proof. I don't know how it works up your way but where I live it's simple "prove it works . . . Through peer review . . . Or fuck off". The only place you'll teaching methods based on conjecture or opinion is in that very small sample of specialist private schools . . . And they still have to meet educational requirements and criteria. You utilised RPG's at school by your own admission . . . Do you think it made you more articulate? Did they not provide you some sort of security and social fulfillment?
As to the whole being bullied and thrown in lockers . . . Sorry but wake up!!! Was it RPG's or being a geek or any other number of factors. You were bullied because any group will do one thing first . . . It'll identify what is NOT part of the group before agreeing on what is . . . An observation validated by repeated empirical studies. People have always been bullied . . . It's complex and not as simple as nerds vs jocks like fucking Hollywood would have it - though it exists in part because a lot of what we experience is a result of how we have been informed by the likes of Hollywood as an expectation. I wear glasses, I like comics, RPG's, existentialist philosophy, fantasy and sci fi fiction and movies etc . . . I can also play rugby, I go to the gym, I derive as much pleasure from working on my car as from anything else I enjoy, I used to drink a loads and have sampled more alternative substances than most people (no I do not have a problem - to borrow a quote "all it did was make me laugh my tits off on the saturday night and I went to work on Monday as usual") . . . I never lost a fight at school because I was one of those who felt compelled to stand up for my friends who weren't so able against those who wanted to intimidate them and that lead to personal ridicule.
But what I was aware of is that there were more than just those groups . . . And they all treated each other just a badly!!! We were as judgmental as those we were critical of and they were often as not victims themselves from other groups within the school politic. If one stops being myopic in their vision one would have seen that much of the cruel excluding bullshit adolescent power plays were just a prevalent in EVERY OTHER ASPECT OF THE SCHOOL EXPERIENCE. The rowers hated the tennis guys, the rugby guys hated the soccer guys, the cricket guys hated the baseball guys . . . My school hated a nearby grammar school on the field of conflict (which ever sport was being played). Jesus at the interschool athletics (attendance compulsory) a full blown food war broke out between my school and the one next to us and the teachers didn't stop it because the other school had started it first by launching a preemptive orange which hit our headmaster (he near as gave the order to attack). That's the adolescent experience . . . Stop feeling sorry for yourself because you decided you were socially inept, we are talking teenagers they're all socially inept that's why they're teenagers. Look at all the girls that take jocks to court because they raped them . . . THAT's socially inept behaviour . . . Or the students that end up sabotaging a rival with horrendous results . . . Or the online bullies who pursue anyone (not all gay or quiet or nerds or RPGer's) . . . Or the students that decide to flip out matrix style with guns because they're genuinely disturbed individuals . . .
Anecdotal but true story - end of grade 12 . . . One of the Jocks who was a prefect etc turns to me and says "I envy you sometimes" . . . "why, you're a prefect, you have rich parents your life is set . . . I've a single mum and I'm here on a scholarship/bursary . . . My future is totally unknown after we leave here?" his reply "cause you do what you want, you can be who ever you want to be because you don't give a shit about what other people think . . . You're actually free". It didn't make sense til a year later when I found out he'd been pushed by over enthusiastic parents into doing law, he didn't want to doit, he knew he didn't have the capacity to do it and really didn't want to go to university at all . . . He had a tota and absolute fucking mental breakdown on campus and ended up on a private psychiatric unit, he never went back to university . . . His life went downhill from there . . . Poor poor bastard.
B) as a therapeutic tool . . . Well you found comfort in RPG's THAT VALIDATES MY CONTENTION . . . It's anecdotal and that's why it needs to be researched. That's how research begins . . . Anecdotal observation, hypothesis generation, research design, conducting the research (after approval from ethics committee), data analysis, interpretation, peer review then publishing then replication of the results and refinement of the interpretation through discourse with other researchers and practitioners. Counselling based on opinion and a theory is the province of the 'ju ju mumbo jumbo, wave a crystal, we're all reincarnations of somebody famous strange no one is a reincarnated pig farmer, the worlds problems can all be solved with a big hug, buy the way it'll cost you 10 times as much for an hour in therapy with us than it would with a conventional registered monitored and accountable therapist because we're so misunderstood and it's a conspiracy within the scientific community that they fail to find any validity in our methodology because they feel threatened by us and our ammmaaazing technique, why is the the world so shit then? Because you didn't believe in the method hard enough for it to work so it's your fault not that we are a cynical money grubbing fraud' crowd.
If it works for you rock on . . . But don't wave an ancient tome at me any say the research has been done, it's conclusive and definitive. Especially when psychological research must be replicable . . . You never ever ever ever just do it once and assume the results are the final answer - that's just plain wrong . . . In fact it betrays a basic lack of understanding bordering on ignorance.
As to the poor hygiene and the social ineptness of con crowds . . . Ever been to sporting event? Before they beefed up security? . . . How socially inept were the football crews of Europe and the UK? For those that don't know . . . Soccer hooligans, organised fights and violence between different gangs . . . Huge problem from the 1970's onwards. In my personal experience we used to have 'the hill' at the cricket ground . . . Cheaper than a ticket in the stands . . . Provided you liked drinking til you puked, didn't mind dodging the frequent fights and standing in piss and used johnnies or what have you . . .
As a final note any psychological study has to have cultural applicability . . . It has to be repeated within the culture one in operating in. The UK BPS frequently replicates American studies with very different results . . . that's why it's done because there are cultural differences that can profoundly influence the effectiveness of any given system or teaching or counselling. The UK even repeated the forbidden experiment (Zimbardo) with different results - the prisoners subverted the guards and they all rebelled against the system, causing the experiment to be discontinued because . . . Well the participants refused to participate . . . We are all still mulling over what this means and whole fields of research have resulted from it - none conclusive all still theoretical.
|
|
|
Post by Kainguru on Jul 31, 2012 1:41:13 GMT -8
As an addit, and because personal disclosure appears to be both tolerated and acceptable on these forums (plus being a measure of my 'comfort' so to speak), try having an (at the time) undiagnosed bi- polar affective disorder. Try telling your mother in later years you didn't get top grades because A) you were lazy and getting 5 or 6 out of 7 with no effort was more fun, B) you didn't want to be seen as a smart arse because that really would be trouble and C) because you were responding to being bi-polar you opted to avoid high expectations by deliberately under achieving or at times just found that life was too chaotic to focus properly (mania is bit like a free 24/7 supply if coke without the nosebleeds) - not a happy conversation that one. The point is my social awkwardness was due to imbalances in neuro transmitter substances not RPG's or the books I read . . . My sense of dissociation due to the same thing. Try talking to people when your thought processes have accelerated to the point that you cannot articulate quickly enough to keep up . . . My manic 'tell' being a mild stutter that develops because I get caught in an audio/verbal processing loop as I try to resynchronise my thoughts processes with my verbal discourse . . . I'm bi-polar and I don't give a shit who knows I play RPG's and I don't give a shit who knows but I don't play RPG's because I'm bi-polar nor am I bi-polar because I play RPG's . . .
What I do know is that I'm not medicated at the moment, what I do know is that I'm a walking experiment of one and that my GP and several others are interested in how I've managed to do this. Make no mistake I've been batshit crazy in the past . . . and my moods are by no means stable but I remain socially engaged and functional despite the swings. Part of it is an unconventional application of RET (rational emotive therapy) and a small insight from RPG's (rather a skill set acquired, specifically from bring a GM as opposed to a player) and the nature of the social contract within my old gaming group - Tyrannus for all his faults as a munchkin made me GM on appointed game days, through peer pressure and a genuine concern (expressed as a naive insight), despite my internal upheavals . . . That's how I learnt to remain functional and maintain a functional focus. But I lack the objectivity, as a subjective experience, to deconstruct the methodology and reduce it to testable data sets . . .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 3:32:07 GMT -8
Whoa Stop right there . . . A study from the late 1970's IS NOT STILL RELEVANT. That's not an opinion or a belief . . . It's a simple FACT. Methodologies have changed drastically since then . . . Psychology itself has moved on significantly: please refer to the cognitive revolution in psychology . . . The 1970's was still dominated by the predominately behaviourist paradigm which made way for Cognitive Behaviourialists in the 1980's. The method of counselling known as Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is result of that revolution (though the truth is it was a refinement of Rationale Emotive Therapy rather than a new therapy). Discourse Analysis and other social psychology methodologies either didn't exist in the 1970's or were still being defined and developed. There were two very good reasons I made explicit in wanting to use RPG's in research.
To say that past research is not relevant just because there are newer techniques is ridiculous. Maybe you should read the book before dismissing it. You don’t know what it says, or how the data was compiled or what conclusions it reaches.
A) as an education aide . . . Empirical proof. I don't know how it works up your way but where I live it's simple "prove it works . . . Through peer review . . . Or fuck off". Ok… let me make this clear. I am not here to be patronised by anyone who thinks knows more than me. I rarely use bad language, mainly out of respect. If you are not going to respect me or my views, please me know so I can tell you to fuck yourself.
As stated, I use it rarely, but I do use it.
The only place you'll teaching methods based on conjecture or opinion is in that very small sample of specialist private schools . . . And they still have to meet educational requirements and criteria. You utilised RPG's at school by your own admission . . . Do you think it made you more articulate? Did they not provide you some sort of security and social fulfillment?
I haven’t “utitilised RPGs at school”, I have played them. Once I left school we used to run games there.
As to the whole being bullied and thrown in lockers . . . Sorry but wake up!!!
OK. Please elaborate on this one. What does “wake up!!!” means? That my experience doesn’t count? That me being bullied was irrelevant?
What sort of “wake up!!!” are we on here? I just want to make sure I understand your implications before reaching any conclussions.
Was it RPG's or being a geek or any other number of factors. You were bullied because any group will do one thing first . . . It'll identify what is NOT part of the group before agreeing on what is . . . An observation validated by repeated empirical studies. People have always been bullied . . . It's complex and not as simple as nerds vs jocks like fucking Hollywood would have it - though it exists in part because a lot of what we experience is a result of how we have been informed by the likes of Hollywood as an expectation. I wear glasses, I like comics, RPG's, existentialist philosophy, fantasy and sci fi fiction and movies etc . . . I can also play rugby, I go to the gym, I derive as much pleasure from working on my car as from anything else I enjoy, I used to drink a loads and have sampled more alternative substances than most people (no I do not have a problem - to borrow a quote "all it did was make me laugh my tits off on the saturday night and I went to work on Monday as usual") . . . I never lost a fight at school because I was one of those who felt compelled to stand up for my friends who weren't so able against those who wanted to intimidate them and that lead to personal ridicule.
You never lost a fight at school because you had the physique and chose to engage in violent confrontation. Wow, you were a hero to your friends by beating up other bullies. Congratulations! We don’t all have the physique or chose to engage in violence.
But what I was aware of is that there were more than just those groups . . . And they all treated each other just a badly!!! We were as judgmental as those we were critical of and they were often as not victims themselves from other groups within the school politic. If one stops being myopic in their vision one would have seen that much of the cruel excluding bullshit adolescent power plays were just a prevalent in EVERY OTHER ASPECT OF THE SCHOOL EXPERIENCE. The rowers hated the tennis guys, the rugby guys hated the soccer guys, the cricket guys hated the baseball guys . . . My school hated a nearby grammar school on the field of conflict (which ever sport was being played). Jesus at the interschool athletics (attendance compulsory) a full blown food war broke out between my school and the one next to us and the teachers didn't stop it because the other school had started it first by launching a preemptive orange which hit our headmaster (he near as gave the order to attack). That's the adolescent experience . . .
No buddy. That might be the adolescent experience you had. In my case I was taught, very early on, to be the better man. Maybe you have no problem justifying that type of vile behaviour you engaged in and, by the sounds of it, defend vehemently. You might be proud of a headmaster who allowed a food fight because someone thought it’d be fun to throw an orange at him. You might consider school aggressive rivalry to be acceptable. I don’t.
I am not sure what part of the world you are in (I’d venture say the USA or the UK, but I could be wrong), but I REALLY pleased I didn’t grow up there. Even though my upbringing was pretty shitty itself.
Stop feeling sorry for yourself because you decided you were socially inept, And exactly what on Earth makes you think I feel sorry for myself? Exactly what crystal ball are you looking into, because it certainly is showing the wrong channel there. we are talking teenagers they're all socially inept that's why they're teenagers.
To put it bluntly: Bullshit.
Look at all the girls that take jocks to court because they raped them . . . THAT's socially inept behaviour . . .
What? That is socially inept? To take someone who has raped you to court is socially inept? For real?
Or the students that end up sabotaging a rival with horrendous results . . . Or the online bullies who pursue anyone (not all gay or quiet or nerds or RPGer's) . . . Or the students that decide to flip out matrix style with guns because they're genuinely disturbed individuals . . .
That is a sign of something else than social ineptitude.
Anecdotal but true story - end of grade 12 . . . One of the Jocks who was a prefect etc turns to me and says "I envy you sometimes" . . . "why, you're a prefect, you have rich parents your life is set . . . I've a single mum and I'm here on a scholarship/bursary . . . My future is totally unknown after we leave here?" his reply "cause you do what you want, you can be who ever you want to be because you don't give a shit about what other people think . . . You're actually free". It didn't make sense til a year later when I found out he'd been pushed by over enthusiastic parents into doing law, he didn't want to doit, he knew he didn't have the capacity to do it and really didn't want to go to university at all . . . He had a tota and absolute fucking mental breakdown on campus and ended up on a private psychiatric unit, he never went back to university . . . His life went downhill from there . . . Poor poor bastard.
And what’s that story to do with the topic?
B) as a therapeutic tool . . . Well you found comfort in RPG's THAT VALIDATES MY CONTENTION . . . It's anecdotal and that's why it needs to be researched. That's how research begins . . . Anecdotal observation, hypothesis generation, research design, conducting the research (after approval from ethics committee), data analysis, interpretation, peer review then publishing then replication of the results and refinement of the interpretation through discourse with other researchers and practitioners. Counselling based on opinion and a theory is the province of the 'ju ju mumbo jumbo, wave a crystal, we're all reincarnations of somebody famous strange no one is a reincarnated pig farmer, the worlds problems can all be solved with a big hug, buy the way it'll cost you 10 times as much for an hour in therapy with us than it would with a conventional registered monitored and accountable therapist because we're so misunderstood and it's a conspiracy within the scientific community that they fail to find any validity in our methodology because they feel threatened by us and our ammmaaazing technique, why is the the world so shit then? Because you didn't believe in the method hard enough for it to work so it's your fault not that we are a cynical money grubbing fraud' crowd.
And what on Earth has that to do with promoting the hobby from the ground up? You’re either missing my point, ignoring it, or having a completely different conversation.
If it works for you rock on . . . But don't wave an ancient tome at me any say the research has been done, it's conclusive and definitive. Especially when psychological research must be replicable . . . You never ever ever ever just do it once and assume the results are the final answer - that's just plain wrong . . . In fact it betrays a basic lack of understanding bordering on ignorance.
Right… at no point I have argued any of those points. I simply stated that research has been done and that it is not what the hobby needs to be promoted?
Please stop reading what you want to, and read what I wrote.
As to the poor hygiene and the social ineptness of con crowds . . . Ever been to sporting event? Before they beefed up security? . . . How socially inept were the football crews of Europe and the UK? For those that don't know . . . Soccer hooligans, organised fights and violence between different gangs . . . Huge problem from the 1970's onwards. In my personal experience we used to have 'the hill' at the cricket ground . . . Cheaper than a ticket in the stands . . . Provided you liked drinking til you puked, didn't mind dodging the frequent fights and standing in piss and used johnnies or what have you . . .
And again, what is that to do with promoting the hobby from the ground up? Having filthy people at sporting events justifies having filthy people at conventions? Is that your point?
As a final note any psychological study has to have cultural applicability . . . It has to be repeated within the culture one in operating in. The UK BPS frequently replicates American studies with very different results . . . that's why it's done because there are cultural differences that can profoundly influence the effectiveness of any given system or teaching or counselling. The UK even repeated the forbidden experiment (Zimbardo) with different results - the prisoners subverted the guards and they all rebelled against the system, causing the experiment to be discontinued because . . . Well the participants refused to participate . . . We are all still mulling over what this means and whole fields of research have resulted from it - none conclusive all still theoretical.
So what? Again, exactly how does any of that relate to my original point that we don’t need research or psychological studies to promote the hobby?
|
|
|
Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 31, 2012 3:49:50 GMT -8
I am a remarkably slow writer... but let me jump in, before the flames, to say I see how kainguru and Paco are both right. The hazard of PR counsel is the necessity to hold two conflicting points of view at the same time and then work towards shared interest... (yes, RPGs were a great training for me there.) So I am writing to help clarify the common ground in the two points but not as fast as the replies.
I am a much better fast talker.
And I encourage others to jump in with brainstorming as per the original subject of this Thread.
|
|