D.T. Pints
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JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
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Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
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Post by D.T. Pints on Sept 19, 2012 16:10:03 GMT -8
After a bit of research (ok 4 google searches.) I seemed to find that the Pathfinder community seems rather antagonistic towards having a "edges/hindrances" component being a part of character creation. Some folks posting on Paizo's forums recognized the existence of these in GURPS but complained about them being used to a fault by powergamers who take the phobia: Arachibutyrophobia. the fear of peanut butter sticking to the roof of your mouth. (Although I've seen my dog with a mouthful and that sumbitch was SCURRED!)
Extreme example but I hope you get my point. I've been including them in my PF game but they are very case by case basis and I can't imagine creating a dedicated mechanic for this. Anybody out there using them in their non-GURPS, non-SW games ?
And no I just don't want to "put that shit down and just play Savage Worlds" (I don't want my chocolate with my peanut butter right now...it might stick to the roof of my mouth!)
Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2012 1:50:57 GMT -8
I think 3.x need something new and interesting to avoid stagnation, using proven mechanics from other systems could help with this, having edges and hidrances will not automatically turn to a gritty leathal system or fast paced pulp one and fundamentally ruin your experience; it will just be Panthfinder with edges and hindrances, i.e. more options, which is good...
The GM could step in and stop munchkins from exploiting such a mechanic, however I have found that there is a mentality in D20 gamers (especially forumers) that the books are sacred and everything in them must be used as RAW, so it might be hard for some DMs to enforce this.
Of course it also depends on how such a thing is implemented, it can be made so that every disadvantage really hurts and the advantages don't give you too large a bonus in combat, this is true in L5R where every disadvantage will either be always relevant (one hand) or will come to suddenly bite you in arse eventually (lecherousness) and may cost your bowels and head. Still in D20 I can see every dungeon crawler min-maxer running around with "antisocial", "loner", "greedy", "dark past" etc.; it could be made that mental disadvantages only give you mental advantages, physical ones give physical disads, and so forth to prevent some munchkinsm. "If you want your wizard to have the one arm disad, you can not choose a magic advantage that makes your spells better." Finally I think it depends on your gaming group and how much such things will matter in your game, a hack and slash only game doesn't necessarily need these, but a well rounded campaign, with "good" and mature roleplayers, can be spiced up with such mechanics.
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Post by jazzisblues on Sept 20, 2012 6:44:21 GMT -8
There have always been and will always be players who will wrench the rules to give them the most possible mechanical advantage. The same person who will take a disadvantage that can never happen will dig around for the absolute best possible numeric build to give them the most power. Caveat, some people try to minimize their disads because they think the gm will use them against them. (I'm going to speak to this in a moment).
As long as I've been playing I've been writing disads into my characters, whether the system acknowledged them or not they were there, and even before I knew what they were called they were there. I just thought I was writing something interesting that made my character more fun. Whodathunkit.
People who take that view are taking the wrong (in my opinion) view of what disadvantages are about. It's not about weakening the character, it's about making the character more interesting. If someone is concerned about "weakening" their character by taking or writing a disadvantage into their character they're thinking in terms of "winning" the game and their thought process is flawed to begin with.
Just my 2 krupplenicks worth, your mileage may of course vary.
JiB
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2012 11:16:02 GMT -8
People who take that view are taking the wrong (in my opinion) view of what disadvantages are about. It's not about weakening the character, it's about making the character more interesting. If someone is concerned about "weakening" their character by taking or writing a disadvantage into their character they're thinking in terms of "winning" the game and their thought process is flawed to begin with. Exactly. The problem, in my opinion, is that Dungeons and Dragons (3.x, 4e and pathfinder) "trains" you to min max, or you die a horible death. I can understand how gamers who play it almost exclusively can start to develop such a mentality, because I was one of them until my mind opened after I stopped playing dnd and picked up other games. Of course I mean to offend no one with this since it is understandable that a game can define your gaming style; a vampire gamer will lean more towards intrigue, a Gurps gamer will usually dive for cover, a Call of cthulhu gamer will pick certain invastigative skill (and a high move rating) and a D20 will be good at picking the right options from a large pool, in order to make a strong character.
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Post by jazzisblues on Sept 20, 2012 12:17:43 GMT -8
People who take that view are taking the wrong (in my opinion) view of what disadvantages are about. It's not about weakening the character, it's about making the character more interesting. If someone is concerned about "weakening" their character by taking or writing a disadvantage into their character they're thinking in terms of "winning" the game and their thought process is flawed to begin with. Exactly. The problem, in my opinion, is that Dungeons and Dragons (3.x, 4e and pathfinder) "trains" you to min max, or you die a horible death. I can understand how gamers who play it almost exclusively can start to develop such a mentality, because I was one of them until my mind opened after I stopped playing dnd and picked up other games. Of course I mean to offend no one with this since it is understandable that a game can define your gaming style; a vampire gamer will lean more towards intrigue, a Gurps gamer will usually dive for cover, a Call of cthulhu gamer will pick certain invastigative skill (and a high move rating) and a D20 will be good at picking the right options from a large pool, in order to make a strong character. Unless of course the gm and the game in question don't take the view that power equates to fun in which case being more powerful is likely to be more frustrating than helpful. JiB
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2012 11:59:29 GMT -8
3.5th Edition Unearthed Arcana had something resembling Disads in it. Feats are basically edges IMHO
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Post by suboptimal on Oct 21, 2013 6:10:20 GMT -8
I was just thinking about this the other day. My idea was to introduce Disads/Hindrences but no Edges/Quirks since, as shoe pointed out: " Feats are basically edges ". I would like to use Disads as ROLEplaying aids. For that reason i would only use "Non-Game Mechanic-Disads" like i.E.: Quick to anger, Greedy, Addiction, Coward, Cruel... As for compensation, iwas thinking about giving away some skillpoints, or maybe 1 or 2 (really just one or two) extra HP. I haven´t really thought this through, so if anyone here has an opinion on this, or could tell if and how this might unbalance the game, please tell.
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Post by jazzisblues on Oct 21, 2013 6:25:00 GMT -8
I was just thinking about this the other day. My idea was to introduce Disads/Hindrences but no Edges/Quirks since, as shoe pointed out: " Feats are basically edges ". I would like to use Disads as ROLEplaying aids. For that reason i would only use "Non-Game Mechanic-Disads" like i.E.: Quick to anger, Greedy, Addiction, Coward, Cruel... As for compensation, iwas thinking about giving away some skillpoints, or maybe 1 or 2 (really just one or two) extra HP. I haven´t really thought this through, so if anyone here has an opinion on this, or could tell if and how this might unbalance the game, please tell. Since disads are typically purchased at chargen you could also give them an extra attribute point to spend (assuming you're using the point buy system) for each disad they chose. JiB
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 21, 2013 6:49:07 GMT -8
I like when necromancers out themselves by bringing back my old, rotting threads ! Again it depends on the group. But with many of the Pathfinder groups I've encountered a dedicated mechanic to "incentivize" the taking of disads will get power gamed. I am really enjoying a 'benny' incentive mechanic to encourage characters to "play their disads". It doesn't happen in game, but afterwards we often discuss the way the game went over our own campaign forums. If a situation presents itself: Our dwarven cleric actually has a traumatic past (hiding in a pool of his kins blood as a youth as they got slaughtered by orcs) resulting in him being a bit phobic about getting blood on his hands. It has made for some great battle scene hands shaking "can I heal this badly wounded guy or not" role playing. For that he gets luck points or rerolls to use in the next game. Not a HUGE incentive but just a nice reminder that goes beyond an increase in experience. Which given Pathfinders exponential MATHS as levels increase, I in no way want to accelerate. Giving bonuses to abilities might work it just feels like a power gamers road to me. But then again GURPS players do that shit all the time. *shiftily looks around for GURPS players* Thanks for bringing this up again suboptimal!
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Post by suboptimal on Oct 21, 2013 7:28:18 GMT -8
@ JiB: Nice idea. I think i would use this method, but only if you generate the buildpoints via diceroll, like say 24D6. That way you might prevent a bit of power gaming.
@ D.T. Pints: Braaiiins... Most of "my" players have a concept for their character & have an idea how to play their character. By using something like disads at character creation, they would be able to score some points for these things. Others might start to think about their character a bit more during creation. To "prevent" powergaming i would like to give away either: skill points (you don´t have that many in D&D 3.x/Pathfinder, imo and you have a level cap for skills anyway), or: one or two HP.
Your luck point solution sounds good as well & i like JiBs idea too.
Now, is there someone who really knows the system of D&D 3.x/Pathfinder, who could tell us if this would break the game in an unplayable fashion?
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Post by jazzisblues on Oct 21, 2013 12:16:52 GMT -8
@ JiB: Nice idea. I think i would use this method, but only if you generate the buildpoints via diceroll, like say 24D6. That way you might prevent a bit of power gaming. @ D.T. Pints: Braaiiins... Most of "my" players have a concept for their character & have an idea how to play their character. By using something like disads at character creation, they would be able to score some points for these things. Others might start to think about their character a bit more during creation. To "prevent" powergaming i would like to give away either: skill points (you don´t have that many in D&D 3.x/Pathfinder, imo and you have a level cap for skills anyway), or: one or two HP. Your luck point solution sounds good as well & i like JiBs idea too. Now, is there someone who really knows the system of D&D 3.x/Pathfinder, who could tell us if this would break the game in an unplayable fashion? Somewhat a matter of opinion regarding what constitutes break, but no I don't think it would break Pathfinder at all to do this. JiB
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Oct 21, 2013 13:18:40 GMT -8
What about only disads?
As in, at character gen you have to take x number of points worth of disads.
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 21, 2013 23:29:04 GMT -8
In the great history of D20, if you consider PF as an evolution of D&D 1e, there were official (optional) rules for disads in character creation in the 2e Players Option Series. They included things like greedy, addiction, etc etc. A thoughtful disad system wouldn't break PF just the brains of certain types of players (cough*munchkin*cough) Aaron
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Post by suboptimal on Oct 22, 2013 8:12:26 GMT -8
Exactly that. And only Disads without game mechanic consequences, i.E. nothing like say: bad eyesight. @ JiB: I thought about your idea a bit more. Should the PHB allow for different tiers of buildingpoints, i would use your method with the low or maybe mid-tier. Just to make sure, that no character runs around with three to four 18 stats. I gotta check the PHB for that & see what the average stat might be.
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Post by jazzisblues on Oct 23, 2013 6:48:38 GMT -8
Exactly that. And only Disads without game mechanic consequences, i.E. nothing like say: bad eyesight. @ JiB: I thought about your idea a bit more. Should the PHB allow for different tiers of buildingpoints, i would use your method with the low or maybe mid-tier. Just to make sure, that no character runs around with three to four 18 stats. I gotta check the PHB for that & see what the average stat might be. You would want to juggle the numbers so things remain balanced. Why not have disads that have a mechanical effect. Bad eyesight (to use your example) -2 to all perception checks. Lame = slower movement rate ... One armed means they can't use two handed weapons and can't use a shield ... The list of possibilities is limited ONLY by one's imagination. JiB
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