tomes
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Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Oct 3, 2012 12:59:22 GMT -8
OK, so it seems that ranged combat in savage worlds is deadly. Now, that's fair enough, however part of that deadliness is the fixed damage (2d6, e.g. for an arrow) versus being based on strength, so even a weakling could do crazy damage, but that's only to be expected (the great equalizer and all that).
part of that deadliness is because of the easier-to-hit mechanismof having a TN of 4, and parry being irrelevant. This seems a bit unbalanced.
What are peoples thoughts of changing the TN to something like 5. It makes a d4 for shooting/throwing a bit 'harder' (you could argue "not really" cause of the 4 exploding (on a d4) anyways, so 5 is minimium, but it does affect the overall ability to hit due to modifiers and such). It also means that 'aiming' for the +2 makes more sense to make simple (earlier level or lower skill-based) hits, and hence you can't also run around like a mad-man and do 10 things at once, especially if you are inexperienced or just low-level proficient at these skills.
How about 6, does that make it too hard by far?
I'm running a fantasy campaign, and it just seems that once players find out that the mechanics are leaning that way, they will play that angle (metagame), which isn't all bad... again, ranged is deadly for a reason.... but in reality is it that easy to hit? Or would you argue that a TN of 4 is still a tough hit?
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Post by gandalftheplaid on Oct 3, 2012 17:16:43 GMT -8
...(2d6, e.g. for an arrow) versus being based on strength, so even a weakling could do crazy damage, but that's only to be expected (the great equalizer and all that). I'm not sure it's as much of a factor as you might think. At least in the deluxe book, the medieval ranged weapons are all either Str+d(4 or 6) damage or they are 2d6 damage but require a strength of d6 or d8. So the "even a weakling..." doesn't really apply until you get to guns. Throwing Axe is an exception, but it's range is a serious factor.
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Post by gandalftheplaid on Oct 3, 2012 17:43:00 GMT -8
As to the TN modification, I'm going to provide an opposing position, but I'm not going to come right out and say you're wrong. 1: I'm not an expert, and 2: you and I may have different desires on how bad-ass bows should be. Are Legolas or Hawkeye realistic? No. But they're pretty damn cool. I've not run SW a lot, but what little I did typically didn't have folks rolling for a TN of 4. A target of 4 assumes optimum range, clear weather & lighting, no cover, normal size and standing up straight. Sometimes it's nice to have mindless savage bad guys that go nuts. But typically my bad guys had at least some notion of self preservation. So it's often not hard to suddenly make that number a 5-7 with stock rules if want to. There's another factor to consider as well: ranged attacks have the built in gamble of accidentally hitting your friends. I'm not talking about Storking the roll and pulling a Cheney, but rather shooting into melee combat. If the bad guy has a 1 or 2 cover bonus for being with/behind your ally and you miss within the range of that cover bonus, you just hit your buddy. (PS: When I GM, a player can use a called shot to avoid the cover penalty and thus the friendly fire risk. It would work out to a slightly tougher TN to succeed as they're being careful / erring on the side of caution.)
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Post by shadrack on Oct 3, 2012 20:21:11 GMT -8
My opinion is that you need to leave the default TN of 4 as-is.
If, as you suggest, your players all start drifting toward ranged weapons,... They will quickly find that it's not very fun to be toe-to-toe with an axe wielding ork (perhaps with an arrow in his shoulder or thigh) when you have a stick and a piece of twine in your hand.
I would probably call someone with a bow in hand in melee combat unarmed (-2 to your parry Legolas), or at least say the weapon is ruined if the ork misses. "You blocked the axe strike! ... with your bow, and it's in 2 pieces now. "
Gimli may never catch up to Legolas, but if he wasn't there, Legolas would be overrun.
I also think you'll find that some people don't want to be the guy with the bow or crossbow. They want to have the gigantic axe, or maul, or great sword.
Give it a try as-is, see how it goes. Perhaps the first tribe of goblins were idiots. The second may not be. Tactics can do a lot for you (or your players) in these situations. Cover, lighting, environmental effects, tactics,... all these things combine to set the stage, don't forget to use them.
Oh yeah, have fun!
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Post by jazzisblues on Oct 4, 2012 6:50:47 GMT -8
I took a walk down this path earlier this year and here's what I came up with in the end.
Premise 1: Magic trumps ranged attack which trumps melee attack.
Answer: Not entirely true
Yes magic is scary powerful, particularly because many physical magic attacks have no saving throw or resistance roll. However, they cost power points and those are in somewhat limited supply.
Ranged attacks are more likely to hit than melee attacks but if you factor in things like range, movement and cover to the attack rolls the success % drops markedly.
At the end of the day in ranged combat, smart trumps good.
Let's say for example that your archer has a d8 in shooting. Base 50% chance of a success. If he's at anything other than short range he suffers minuses to his attack. If he's moving (unstable platform like a horse) he suffers minuses to his attack. If his target has any cover at all he suffers minuses to his attack. Exact numbers can be found in the book, but you get the idea.
In the end it actually ends up being pretty balanced if people are at all thoughtful about what's going on. My bad guys tend to try to shoot from cover and catch their targets out in the open. Pretty much exactly what we were trained to do in the Corps.
Cheers,
JiB
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Post by shadrack on Oct 4, 2012 8:35:01 GMT -8
JiB I think you meant a d6 gets you a 50% chance.
Anyway, I totally stole these from the Order 66 podcast, but here is, "the list" to consider when building an encounter.
(disclaimer: this was designed for SWSE, but I think it's applicable, and definitely worth some thought)
(top 5 are most important and should probably be in all encounters) 1) Rule of 6 => unless you're planning on your thugs getting wiped out with an area attack have them (at least the groups), stand about 6 " apart from each other. 2) Large Area => unless you have some other constraint, have encounters in large areas. This gives the good guys and bad guys room to manoeuvre. 3) Cover => have some. There's nothing more boring than the empty warehouse, desert, plain, etc. 4) Concealment => goes hand in hand with cover, but have some good places to break line of sight and reposition 5) Terrain => provides cover and/or concealment, cliffs, hills, trees, pits, you get the idea.
(less so) 6) Doors => if applicable, are they open or closed? what's behind them? 7) Hazards => special terrain, like lava flows, or running water, or a pit of rabid bunny rabbits. 8) Skills => what skills do the combatants have that might be fun to see in action. Not just fighting and shooting. Climbing, swimming, knowledge: tactics, survival, what have you. 9)Elevation => more a reminder to break your terrain up. Archers in the middle of a forest = meh. Archers on a difficult to assail cliff or berm of some sort = HOLY CRAP!
This was just an attempt to give some more specific advice. Hope it is helpful.
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Post by Stu Venable on Oct 4, 2012 9:01:28 GMT -8
I would contend that the advantage to ranged weapons w/ a static TN does a pretty good job of reflecting reality.
There is a very good reason police, soldiers, etc arm themselves with guns rather than swords.
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Post by gandalftheplaid on Oct 4, 2012 10:57:28 GMT -8
There is a very good reason police, soldiers, etc arm themselves with guns rather than swords. Got tired of swords poking holes in the seats of the squad cars when they get in?
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Post by jazzisblues on Oct 4, 2012 11:35:29 GMT -8
I would contend that the advantage to ranged weapons w/ a static TN does a pretty good job of reflecting reality. There is a very good reason police, soldiers, etc arm themselves with guns rather than swords. No disagreement. There is also a reason that they position their cars between them and whatever is going on. Not many people carry an 88 magnum around with them. (It shoots through schools) JiB
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2012 12:51:39 GMT -8
Johnny Dangerously reference? I need to watch that a again soon.
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Post by jazzisblues on Oct 4, 2012 14:04:28 GMT -8
Johnny Dangerously reference? I need to watch that a again soon. I love that movie. JiB
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Post by The Northman on Oct 5, 2012 9:03:52 GMT -8
I agree with leaving the number where it is. There are enough modifiers available that a good plan can vastly reduce the effectiveness of ranged combat. On the opposite side of the coin, if you're facing ranged combatants on their own terms, there's a reason the term "kill zone," exists.
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Oct 5, 2012 13:32:26 GMT -8
Excellent feedback, and ya, I've only run one session of SW and think I overlooked some of the things around modifiers, being smart defensively (or offensively), etc. I'll leave it as is and see how it all goes.
Thanks!
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kevinr
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 158
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Post by kevinr on Oct 5, 2012 17:28:34 GMT -8
I would leave the TN as it is for all the reasons listed. Also 2d6 damage may seem like a lot at first but is actually not that much. My ranged players may hit a lot more but my melee do a lot more damage when they hit especially as they bump strength up when they level.
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Post by savagedaddy on Oct 15, 2012 22:40:44 GMT -8
It sounds like you expect Savage Worlds to work like D&D.
In my experience, the combat and damage rules are nothing alike. The fact that bullshit like AC and Hit Points don't exist in Savage Worlds can be confusing for fantasy players used to the Gygaxian Laws of Physics. In fact, compared to D&D, Savage Worlds combat can seem like a Coyote and Road Runner cartoon.
The system isn't flawed and doesn't need to be house-ruled to play like Dungeons & Dragons. This is why God (in this case Shane Hensley) created Bennies. Players start with three bennies. They can earn more as they go by roleplaying their character's hindrances to detriment of meta-game tactics. And use them to soak damage when the time comes.
I hope that didn't seem too harsh.
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