jfever
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Post by jfever on Jan 18, 2013 8:41:02 GMT -8
I need to get this straight, because my brain is having a hard time wrapping around it:
The Tenets of Bushido are like the 10 Commandments for Samurai. The only difference between the 10 Commandments and Bushido is that Bushido is up for interpretation.
For example: Take the statement "That's a lie." (assume the statement is conjecture, rather than a statement based on physical, hard evidence.)
If a Crab says it, their lord is totally cool with it as Honesty is a bullshit tenet of Bushido to the Crab.
If a Crane says it, their lord punishes them as Honesty holds more water to the Crane.
is all that stuff above correct? If so, I may have more quesitons. . . .
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Post by fray on Jan 18, 2013 10:07:03 GMT -8
SOunds good to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 10:27:07 GMT -8
It depends on who you are lying to, whatever clan you are lying to your lord can be equally bad. Also lying to an enemy your lord will still be cool since you probably did this to promote your clan's interests (Duty).
All this stuff, to be honest, depends on your campaign, in mine I prefer to have trully honorable characters be rare so that your lord will not punish you for slight offences, like lying to an outsider. That doesn't mean that there will not be an honor loss, there could however be a net gain if you take one for your family.
Even high honor families, the Crane and the Lion (at least as clans) are far from perfect followers of bushido, the Lion are borbeline warmongers and treat their commoners terribly (Compassion) and Crane can be often cowardly (Bravery) and hide behind their connections to the emperor. This is reflected by the fact that their starting honor is 6 witch is a long way to 10 (perfectly honorable).
I expect a character who tries to behave as honorably as possible all the time to face more traction from his lord and society than one who does "what is expected", that also helps to reinforce the theme of samurai drama that L5R stories are often based on.
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jfever
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Post by jfever on Jan 18, 2013 10:52:02 GMT -8
That is kind of my road block of understanding. The concept of playing a character that must follow a set of commandments, but also doesn't completely follow them at the same time.
I guess that's where clan conflict comes in? People having completely different concepts of what is "good" behavior?
I am also asking these questions in mind that I will playing in SirGuido's mixed clan game. I want to play Crab, but if I walk into a different clans court and mouth off at a Lord, am I gonna have to kill myself? Are my Crab brothers gonna back me up? Maybe this is all to much grey area. To many what ifs. I guess I have to play and see? ugh. . . .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 11:16:13 GMT -8
The Ten Commandments say "Thou Shall not kill" Its not a suggestion, its not don't kill these people but those other guys are okay, it doesn't say killing in war is cool but peacetime is not. It says Thou Shall Not Kill.
Yet how many people who believe that do or have served in the military, how many people have they killed, and yet they "know" that they will go to heaven regardless of the fact that they have broken one of the Ten Commandments.
Its essentially the same thing.
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Post by Stu Venable on Jan 18, 2013 11:24:08 GMT -8
Bushido is an ideal. And your characters (Celestial Order aside) are only mortals. Every clan has ideals they value more than other, and I think it's safe to say that individuals will have their own priorities as well.
I just finished working on a list of the Seven Tenets of Bushido to give my PCs. Firstly, as a reminder of What Is Expected. But more importantly, I want them to indicate to me which tenets they value most.
Part of the real drama potential in the game is when those tenets come into conflict.
When your daimyo orders you to burn down the house of thieving peasants and their families (duty vs. compassion) or when you challenge an accuser to a duel, even though you suspect the accusation is true (loyalty vs honesty).
PCs are GOING to violate some tenet or another eventually.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 11:26:57 GMT -8
I guess that's where clan conflict comes in? People having completely different concepts of what is "good" behavior? In part yes, you can check how each clan views others in the core book, very few clans get along because they view the world differently. However there are other factors like history (Mantis vs Phoenix and Crab vs Crane), some vendetas between clans exist since the forming of the empire. Also keep in mind that we are talking about a warrior caste that, unless there is a common foe like the shadowlands to unite against, inter-clan wars are one of the few ways to justify their existence and higher status in society. I am also asking these questions in mind that I will playing in SirGuido's mixed clan game. I want to play Crab, but if I walk into a different clans court and mouth off at a Lord, am I gonna have to kill myself? Are my Crab brothers gonna back me up? Maybe this is all to much grey area. To many what ifs. I guess I have to play and see? ugh. . . . Yes the Crab clan has gotten away with worse offences, it is well known that they have little subtlety when it comes to court matters. Also remember that only your lord(s) can order you (or allow you) to commit seppuku not someone from a different clan. By the way a crab commiting seppuku is very rare, most often they are sent to die honorably at the wall.
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jfever
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Post by jfever on Jan 18, 2013 11:35:25 GMT -8
this is all good. Thanks gang
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 18, 2013 13:00:08 GMT -8
Even high honor families, the Crane and the Lion (at least as clans) are far from perfect followers of bushido, the Lion are borbeline warmongers and treat their commoners terribly (Compassion) and Crane can be often cowardly (Bravery) and hide behind their connections to the emperor. This is reflected by the fact that their starting honor is 6 witch is a long way to 10 (perfectly honorable). HOW DARE YOU SIR! *drops into an iaijutsu stance* On the other hand... the Crane are cowards, so I'm torn... Anyway. The thing with L5R/Rokugan is that the characters are also confused about Bushido. Knowing how to purport yourself is important, knowing what is expected of you socially is important, but knowing how to balance all of that with your own personal sense of honor and everyone else's expectations in the face of Bushido is... hard. Generally no one expects you to be perfect unless you truly are perfect(or really close). Then again don't screw up real bad either. To answer your previous question: I want to play Crab, but if I walk into a different clans court and mouth off at a Lord, am I gonna have to kill myself?[/quote} That depends. It depends on two things really. 1. Do you think its something that deserves seppuku to cleanse yourself of the dishonor? 2. Would your lord think its something that deserves seppuku to cleanse yourself of the dishonor? If your answer to either question is yes, then yes you should take the three cuts. If not, screw it. Not every loss of face requires a sword in your gut, just the really big ones that you can't manage to overcome. One BIG thing to remember is that in Rokugan you are your lord's property. You work for and at his whim. Killing yourself means you are depriving your lord of a useful and valuable tool. You won't do that unless it is very important.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 18, 2013 14:02:09 GMT -8
There are a considerable number of works on Bushido and the duties of a samurai, and the conflict between Bushido and personal honour. Hagakure is a good one, containing a ton of bite-size chunks of Bushido goodness. Code of the Samurai is another personal favourite. The story of the 47 Ronin is another excellent example of Bushido, and is available as a graphic novel digital download from Dark Horse. Oh, and it's free!
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 19, 2013 13:49:22 GMT -8
Addendum to my previous post: 47 Ronin is now not free! I must have got as a special offer (I buy a lot of comics from them)! Many apologies.
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kroh
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Post by kroh on Jan 20, 2013 23:31:46 GMT -8
The thing about Bushido as it is portrayed today is that it WAS NOT an active part of the life of most samurai back in the day. They were very mercenary and expected to be paid for everything that they did. For a while they were considered little more than hired thugs. The whole warrior tenants thing came into play once the shogun had control of the country. It was open.to.interpretation based on the family and status of the Knight (samurai). A patrolling soldier had different expectations than a military officer (samurai). For example, a footsoldier (ashigaru) would be put back in the rank.in file after escaping a slaughter of his unit to report in, but an officer might have to make restitution for not staying to fight on ( giving back rice paid to.him or even up to commiting.suicide).
The books folks mention are good examples of Bushido as played out after 1600. Give em a try as rokugan seems like Japan after the warring states period.
Regards Walt
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 20:10:12 GMT -8
Chivalry in Medieval Europe was similar. The Church created the Rules of Chivalry in an attempt to reign in the knights who for the most part were simply mercenaries who worked for the highest bidder and were not against raiding and pillaging when work wasn't available. The Crusades were for the most part started for the same reason. Redirect all those warriors with nothing to do at something else.
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kroh
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Post by kroh on Jan 21, 2013 21:01:43 GMT -8
That is excellent point! I did a paper in college about the similarities between eastern and western knightly orders and although i did well on it, I could have gotten a bennie for slipping those facts in there. Nice one, Sir.
Regards, Walt
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Feb 8, 2013 14:15:17 GMT -8
The Iron Code of Druss the Legend is how I play samurai in L5R.
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