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Post by Stu Venable on Apr 22, 2013 20:31:37 GMT -8
HJRP0917
Your hosts: Stu, Stork, JiB
Shownotes! Character backgrounds and back stories — why we want them, what we like in them and how we like them presented. Matthew writes in to ask us about starting up the RPG hobby and playing in the third person, rather than the first person. Ira chimes in on fudging dice rolls again and makes his case for letting the dice fall where they might. JFever writes in to rail against players — especially good players — getting out of the hobby because of their significant others. General Insertion Joe writes in to tell us he’s converting a Star Wars D20 game to GURPS and asks about PC balance. He also talks about GMPCs and railroading.
Andreas from Sweden writes in with a theory about the schism between pro-fudgers and anti-fudgers, drawing the line at OSR games and quick chargen. And Daniel in Serbia writes in with a gaming horror story.
Also, at some point, Stu gives some first impressions of Traveller 5. More on that in coming episodes.
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Post by jonas on Apr 23, 2013 3:56:06 GMT -8
Hi, just got to the part of that episode where Andreas told that he met Jonas.
"I wanna know what Jonas thought of our advice."
"Probably nothing. He probably doesn't listen to the show"
Guys... you read several on my letters on the show since that first e-mail about that gm that killed me offscreen. It wasn't a bunch of evil namesake doppelgängers that wrote those letters, they were all from me. I still listen to the show. ;-)
(Don't worry - I still love you guys)
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Apr 23, 2013 5:05:52 GMT -8
I have given out a few questionnaires before. Rarely have they been returned however... I get a lot of "I need to play the character before I can give you a backstory." excuses, and then never get a backstory.
When I started dating my wife, I introduced her to gaming and she was lukewarm to it in all respects. I eventually got her to try a campaign and she enjoyed herself, but she insists its just not for her. That aside, she doesn't give me a hard time for gaming. In fact she actually encourages my gaming, to the point that she goes with me to GenCon even.
Re: Gygax Magazine, I know the Art Director of the magazine, he plays at my FLGS. Oh, and I was actually mentioned in an issue of the magazine! They interviewed the owner of my FLGS in regards to the Retro D&D League we started over a year ago where we have been playing through the different editions up to the new 5th edition. I started with white box and had to bow out around 1st edition AD&D because of work.
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HyveMynd
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Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
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Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
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Post by HyveMynd on Apr 23, 2013 17:49:30 GMT -8
Listening to JiB mention indie games has, once again, made me wish I could run an Apocalypse World-based game for the HJ's hosts. I feel like you all are dancing around the topic without really getting into it. And I'm not trying to be a dick by saying that. I'd just really like to give you guys some experience so you can compare styles of games.
To address Stork's question about players who don't give answers to GM questionaries, I'm going to, surprise, use Apocalypse World again. (Aren't you just sick of me and my indie game drumbeating? Yeah, well, too bad. ;D)
All AW-based games tell the GM to ask LEADING questions. That does two things. Firstly, it gives the player something to work with when giving an answer. Sometimes people, myself included, freeze up when they're presented with a completely blank slate. Being asked a leading question gives them a framework and sets up some of the GM's expectations. Secondly, it forces an answer from the player because no matter what response the give, the GM gets something useful out of it.
For example: Q: You and (Rick) had a really bad breakup last month. Which one of you cheated, and with whom?
Q: How do you always kill (Jacob) in those fantastic dreams you've been having lately?
Q: How did (Tyler) find out about your monstrous nature, and why haven't they outed you?
Q: Why do you have a crush on (Tyler) and how did you humiliate yourself in front of them recently?
Those are from the Monsterhearts Skype game I ran for D.T.Pints, forresst, and scubasteve earlier this month. The setting is "high school teenage monsters" so the questions are intentionally designed to create drama, PC-NPC-PC triangles, and lopsided relationships that are primed to explode into messy situations. Yes, some of them are heavy handed. Yes, some players will balk at "being forced into a corner" or "put on the spot" like that. But you don't have to go that hard with your questions.
Good questions set up a situation or generate a little bit of game fiction, but either allow the player to shape the event or describe how their character reacted. Instead of asking "Who is your family?" ask something like "You're from a big family right? Which of your siblings are you closest to?" Yes, the GM has decided the character has a big family and that they have siblings. But the player still decides how big their family is, how many siblings they have, whether they're older or younger, what kind of relationship they have with their siblings, etc. And with that one question, the GM was just handed a boatload of potential story hooks.
Instead of asking the Fighter "Does your weapon have any special significance?" setting yourself up for a response of "Nope.", ask "Who gave you your first (sword) and why do you still carry it all these years later?" Ask the Thief "Oh man. Your first professional job was a total clusterfuck. Who was the poor schmuck you set up to take the fall for you?" Ask the Wizard "What was that odd little habit your mentor had, and when did you first notice you now do it too?"
You can prep these questions before the session, even if you don't know who will be playing in your game. Just make leading questions that wil "fill in" the blanks of the story or setting that you think will be interesting to explore. It helps to have good "yes anding" skills though. As a rule, if you're putting your players on the spot like this, you have to roll with whatever they give you. Even if it's something you're completely unprepared for.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
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Post by D.T. Pints on Apr 23, 2013 18:32:28 GMT -8
As far as backstory creation goes...I've said it on the forums a few times but I think this is one of the best reasons for giving out 'bennies' i.e. luck points (rerolls) in my Pathfinder games. Its all very noble to think that every player is going to help create a rich, complex story with their families, home towns, strange events in their past. However, like Sir Guido I've had more than a few "I'll get around to it eventually..." And thats the reality of playing potentially very complex story lined games with people that have real families, real home towns and definitely strange events occurring in their real lives. They may never get around to it. Then during our last session fighting a vicious summoned Bearded Devil: (no not this guy) Two of the luck point possessing players stayed out of negative hit point and permanent physical maiming land with some well timed rerolls. Next request for character background ? 100% participation. Having really enjoyed Hyve's AP AW (heh..heh..) games the use of leading questions is a BRILLIANT way to coax information out of creatively stymied players. I stole the shite outta that for my games. Cheers, D.T. Pints (Mrs.)
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HyveMynd
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Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
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Post by HyveMynd on Apr 23, 2013 20:57:22 GMT -8
OK. I got to the part where the hosts are discussing GM PCs. While I am not defending GM PCs at all and think they're a big problem, I do have a counter to Stu's point.
Yes, in some games the GM has prepared a secret for the PCs to solve. It could be a murder mystery, a kidnapping, a treasure hunt, whatever. In that case, I fully agree with what Stu said. Why would a GM want to play a character in a story (a GM PC) where they already know the secret to that story? Doesn't knowing the "solution" to the problem you are tossing at the players lessen your enjoyment of, and potentially run counter to your ability to play a character involved in that problem? I would think so. It's like reading the last few pages of a mystery novel first, finding out who did it, and then reading the story from the beginning. You've robbed yourself of the enjoyment of discovery.
However, there are some styles of games where the story is made up right there on the spot as you're playing. Again, I'm going to wave my indie game banner. I went into that game of Monsterhearts I mentioned above with only a list of 40 names (20 each male and female) and a leading question for each player. That's it. I didn't know who the NPCs were until I grabbed a random name, made a snap decision about their personality, and sat them next to a PC. I didn't know what was going to happen at all during the session. NPCs were literally detailed as they were played.
"Oh shit. forresst just said her PC has a crush on Tyler because he's 'too normal'. OK, so he's the normal kid. How's he going to react in this specific situation? Now scubasteve said his PC cheated with Tyler. Was it a one-time thing? No? Then there's obviously something between those characters. Whoa. Now D.T.Pints said Tyler knows about his PC's monstrous nature, but is being blackmailed into keeping quiet." The NPCs personalities, motivations, and abilities are all created organically out of a combination of the fiction the players create and what's needed for the story.
In that style of game, it's impossible for the GM to know what's going to happen as they are literally flying by the seat of their pants. In that case, the GM can be just as surprised by an NPC as the players are. I can see a GM becoming really interested in a particular NPC and following them around for a while. In the Monsterhearts example above, Tyler has connections to each of the three PCs. That automatically makes him interesting to me as a GM and I want to find out what happens with him.
All that being said, regardless of the style of game you're playing (planned or improv), an NPC should never become the main character of the story. They are always supporting characters. As interesting as Tyler is to me, if Lou Lou decides to feed him to Big Daddy or if Zed gets too hungry and rips his chest open, I'm not going to lift a finger save him. He's completely and utterly disposable.
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Post by ericfromnj on Apr 24, 2013 7:45:50 GMT -8
I have GM PCs all the time - I call them henchmen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 9:01:02 GMT -8
I have GM PCs all the time - I call them henchmen. Aren't henchmen traditionally controlled by players?
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Apr 24, 2013 14:10:53 GMT -8
I have GM PCs all the time - I call them henchmen. Aren't henchmen traditionally controlled by players? Yes. Controlled by players, but the GM makes sure that they remain characters rather than resources. So they may go first through the door repeatedly (requiring some role-playing [as in role-playing] or some further monetary consideration as you would call it danger pay) but PCs could not simply loot the characters record for goodies. Also, NPcs have personalities chosen by the GM, inspired by the players or the story. Henchmen require 200% XP to level up compared to the same classes for a PC in AD&D 1e because they are controlled and not learning on their own. Otherwise he or she is his or her own person.
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jfever
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Post by jfever on Apr 24, 2013 21:56:38 GMT -8
GM PC's are completely stupid.
The way I see it, a GM PC is just a super passive agressive way the GM takes control of the game/character's free will and autonomy away from the players. As the players have very little to control in the first place, this is completely fucked up.
As a GM, you control EVERYTHING in the world. Let the player's control the player's portion of the game. If you feel the need to put in a GM PC, you're either being horribly selfish, or you are trying to compensate for shitty players, which makes you an idiot.
the hate is strong in me.
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Post by ericfromnj on Apr 25, 2013 2:19:24 GMT -8
jfever, tell us how you really feel...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 6:20:53 GMT -8
In reference to the comments about how some times the players force your as the GM into doing a NPC on NPC conversation.
In a campaign I ran a while back the party had a sponsor for awhile that was a Dwarven merchant. They had captured the son of another merchant who had been trying to kill them and went to negotiate his release in exchange for the other merchant leaving them alone.
Rather then talking to him themselves however they pushed their sponsor forward and I found myself having to talk to myself. I tried to give plenty of openings for the players to step in but they refused, one actually commenting that it was great watching me play it out.
I try to give all my NPCs some personality and make living breathing characters, but I also follow the philosophy that all NPCs can die and I routinely kill them off if the players seem to be getting to attached or going to them for help to often. As a result in that game they left a trail of dead behind them that eventually ended in me throwing some jokes into the game where people who knew of them would refuse to help because they didn't want to die.
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Post by rickno7 on Apr 25, 2013 10:17:06 GMT -8
The GM PC discussion did help me realize one thing. All the times before that I talked about using a GM PC, I pretty much was just talking about using a very detailed and interactive NPC. I don't think I've actually used a GM PC myself since I was like 13. I think even then we had pre-made dungeons with random encounters, so that particular set of games was more like a board game than a RPG
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 13:14:41 GMT -8
Once the topic of GMPCs came up, I immediately stared yelling at the air (I wear headphones). The line Stu was trying to find is as easy as this. Are you trying to control your players? If so then a GMPC would be detrimental. If its only to support the players then its not a GMPC, it's an NPC.
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Post by Stu Venable on Apr 25, 2013 13:34:39 GMT -8
I think the line is sooner than that. (though yes, that would be terrible).
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