HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jun 30, 2013 22:58:48 GMT -8
You guys gotta get gina on the show to talk about Dungeon World and the other * World games. JiB did a good job of explaining the basic premise and mechanics, but he got a few details incorrect. And yes, we do have a merry little war going on. First, there are usually only three tiers of results in * World games; a strong hit, a weak hit, and a miss. The dice mechanic is 2D6+ stat modifier, which usually ranges from -1 to +3 (with +3 being the absolute best you can ever have). A result of a 10+, a strong hit, means you get everything you wanted, and probably more. A result of 7-9, a weak hit, means you have a hard choice or an ugly bargain to make. A result of a 6 or less, a miss, means that the GM will make something happen, usually from their list of GM moves based on the situation. Second, while there is a lot of interpretation, there are still codified rules in * World games. You aren't just making up the results of every single die roll. More often than not, you're reading the dice roll, looking at what mechanical result is triggered, and then building the fiction around that result. It's the building of the fictional reality that both informs, and is influenced by the mechanics where the interpretation comes in. But almost all of the Moves tell you, mechanically, what happens for each tier of success. For example, let's say stu, stork, Kimi, and jazzisblues are playing Monster of the Week, (a monster hunting game like Supernatural or X Files) and I'm the Keeper (GM). Imagine that Stork's character has wandered away from the group (as he is wont to do) and is now cornered by a werewolf at the end of a dead end alley. What his character attempts to do in the fiction will inform me of what Move triggers and how to resolve it. Let's imagine he says something like "I'm going to run full tilt towards the werewolf, and then try to parkour off the dumpster (there wasn't a dumpster there before, but it makes sense for there to be one in an alley, so sure), to get past the werewolf and escape." That definitely sounds like it could have a chance of failure and none of the other Basic Moves seem to apply, so I have him make a Act Under Pressure Move. He rolls 2d6, adds his Cool, and let's say he gets an 11 total. That's a strong hit. The Act Under Pressure Move says "On a 10+, you do what you set out to do." So BAM! Stork's character is on his feet on the other side of the werewolf, running out of the alley. I'd probably have Stork describe just how awesomely his dude vaulted over the creature and stuck the landing as well. Let's imagine that Stork rolls poorly and only gets a total of 8. A weak hit. The Act Under Pressure Move says "On a 7-9, the Keeper will give you a worse outcome, a hard choice, or a price to pay." Now's where some interpretation come into play. Given what Stork's character is attempting to do, it's my job to give him the option to succeed, but at a price. Maybe I say something like "Your backpack's way heavy. You're not going to be able to parkour off of anything while carrying it. Leave it behind and you'll make it over, though." That a price to pay. And tying into the topic of the episode, the choice to drop the backpack or not is totally in Stork's hands. Or maybe I offer him a worse outcome. "You make it up onto the top of the dumpster, but the werewolf is faster than you thought. He's right up next to the dumpster, scrabbling up the side and blocking your way off. He'll be right up there with you before you can blink. What do you do?" It being Stork though, he'll probably roll snake eyes. Resulting in a 6 or less. A miss. When that happens, it's not a fail. It's just time for the Keeper to make a move. I could pick from the Basic Keeper Moves. Something like "Inflict harm, as established". We know what the character is trying to do, so we have already established how hurt they can get. I could have the werewolf claw Stork's character as he vaults over, inflicting damage. Or Maybe the character lands wrong and twists his ankle. Since there's a monster present, I could also choose form the list of Monster Moves. Maybe I'll pick "Give chase." In that case I'll say something like, "You vault of the werewolf and take off down the alley, skidding around the corner. That thing is god damned fast though. You hear the clicking of its claws right behind you, and can feel the heat of its breath as it starts gaining on you. What do you do?" Or maybe I'll pick "Appear suddenly" and describe how the monster gets up on the dumpster in the blink of an eye, trapping Stork's PC there. I could also chose from the list of Location Moves. Maybe I'll pick "Close a way" and describe a garbage truck pulling into the alley entrance, blocking it. So while the * World game rules are more interpretive than say, Pathfinder, they're not completely pulled out of the GM's ass. And yes, I'll back up @ jimto. Bennies suck.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 1, 2013 3:24:48 GMT -8
And yes, I'll back up @ jimto. Bennies suck. So what is your beef with bennies exactly?? I personally have a house rule for Bennies - because I dislike the subjectivity of having to hand them out as rewards (and having to REMEMBER to hand them out). Is this what grates on you? In my games everyone gets 4 per adventure instead of 3. I don't hand any out. No more contrived bullshit to try to coax a Bennie out of me when they are out. Spend according to your judgement, run out at your peril. Problem solved (for me).
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 1, 2013 3:52:56 GMT -8
And yes, I'll back up @ jimto. Bennies suck. So what is your beef with bennies exactly?? I personally have a house rule for Bennies - because I dislike the subjectivity of having to hand them out as rewards (and having to REMEMBER to hand them out). Is this what grates on you? In my games everyone gets 4 per adventure instead of 3. I don't hand any out. No more contrived bullshit to try to coax a Bennie out of me when they are out. Spend according to your judgement, run out at your peril. Problem solved (for me). Choke hazard . . . Too easy to get mixed up with the crisps Aaron
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Post by jazzisblues on Jul 1, 2013 5:44:57 GMT -8
Thank you Hyve for clarifying my errata (that sounds kinky by the way) I think I was mixing my metaphors but I'm not sure from whence. Also, great description of how it actually works.
JiB
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Post by malifer on Jul 1, 2013 6:11:32 GMT -8
You may have heard my latest sad email to the podcast about a 4e game I'm in now. Although the 'cast was more about the downsides of 4e than getting a group to understand roleplaying and treat the gm with a little courtesy, I understand their point and I’m about to reinforce it. Anyway I decided I would return to this game on Sunday for I guess solidarity or something because the GM Justin is a good friend. Then Saturday I got an email from Justin saying we would be 2 people short. *light bulb* “Well Justin if you want to play I can run Dungeon World." Yes the dreaded Hipster D&D that Hyvemind taught me how to play. I chose it because it is easy pick-up and requires little to no prep. It was pretty amazing. First in all fairness in the group we were down the power gamer and the new player. Since Dungeon World uses no maps or minis, the players had to listen. Some doodled a little but it was more passive fiddling than disregard. I barely explained how to fill in the character sheet and the rules and just started playing the game as the players would get stuck as to what to do next I would give them options. After a while they started to pick-up on what the basic moves were. Although some players were in the “in the spotlight” more than others, everyone was having a good time as the zany story was just flying. I had a very basic slay the evil beast scenario I had downloaded mostly for monster stats. The “Dungeon” I just made the fuck up. “I want to search for a secret door” Discern Realities = 11 Alright now there is a secret door with treasure. “I’m checking for traps” No physical traps, but you notice an unusual movement in the treasure. “I’ll stab at the gold coins with my sword” roll = 5 *uh-oh* A Coin Golem emerges forth and uppercuts the Paladin knocking him in the far wall. (I made that shit up I looked at my monster stats grabbed a Goblin and gave it an Armor bonus.) The Druid attacks the Golem doing some damage. The Cleric, not “optimized” for combat, is scared to attack. So I suggest doing a Spout Lore to learn about Coin Golems. Roll = 11 I look at my table of players and ask Anna which weapon is the Cleric using? “A staff” Everyone else has swords right? “I have a rapier.” Says the Thief. Shut-up that’s a sword. Okay the Cleric knows that a blunt weapon will be much better against this monster. Anna the player looks very hesitant. You could hand someone else the staff if you wanted? Justin calls out “Attack it” The Cleric rolls for Hack and Slash = 12. A roar erupts around the table. I exclaim the Golem is smashed into pieces as coins fall to the ground. She made it rain! Honestly I wished I had recorded this. It was fantastic. I consider myself an okay GM, but this was one of my personal best sessions. So many epic moments like when the Cleric causes a distraction by kissing the Paladin, as the Witch they are fighting is the Paladin’s Ex, or when the Druid turned into an Orca and accidently fell on the Thief. Also I got to pull the cheapest most fantastic GM move incorporated into the first game. One of my beginning questions to the Thief is what happens to your family if you don’t get 100 gold on this adventure? At the final battle 2 hours after character creation The Thief is pinned in spiderweb. He attempts to break free. Roll = 6 You can get free, but your bag is tossed away. “How far away?” Everyone thinks I’m trying to take his gold. Oh maybe six feet. “Okay” You break free, but your bag is tossed into the air from your frantic burst of strength. The bag hits the ground spewing forth its contents and the Cleric’s family heirloom skitters across the floor to the Cleric’s feet. One of the beginning bonds for the Thief is “I stole something from *blank*." The table erupts almost in unison “OH SHIT!” So now to the part of the story Hyvemind will like less. After the game everyone likes it and my friend Eddie says “Hey what about our Savage Worlds Ghostbusters game?” Oh hell yeah I can run some Savage Worlds! Josh In Orlando
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Post by jazzisblues on Jul 1, 2013 11:42:34 GMT -8
The world will be Savaged ... Buwahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
So very glad to hear that it went well Malifer sounds like a totally fun game.
cheers,
JiB
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Post by henryhankovitch on Jul 1, 2013 16:39:49 GMT -8
During the podcast, the guys described a scenario where a really skilled diplomat character makes a really good in-character speech, hits all the right notes...and then botches a roll. And it seemed for a second that they were on the verge of saying, "well, he's really good at it and he made a good speech, so we should just give it to him." And of course, in some scenarios that's the right thing, especially if the stakes aren't so high. But this example came to my mind:
A "face" character climbs up on a barricade to try to calm down an impending riot. He gives this speech. It's great, an inspired bit of roleplaying. He's hitting all the right notes, the crowd is wavering, it looks like he's got it in the bag. And then, as he finishes his speech, some asshole in the back winds up and chucks a rock. It bounces off a soldier's helmet, and his buddies start wading into the crowd, cudgels swinging. Riot breaks out anyway. It's not the outcome the player was hoping for; and it's actually the sort of thing a railroading asshole might use if he wanted to disregard a high roll from his players. But I think in the case of a botched roll from an otherwise skilled PC, it's a good compromise, especially since it gives you one of those cinematic moments that really goad the players.
There's also a slight variation on "success with complications" that I heard from one of the guys on the Unspeakable Oath podcast. It specifically relates to Call of Cthulhu investigations, but can be more broadly applied. Basically, rather than a failed roll meaning the player doesn't find anything and the investigation comes to a grinding halt (especially in things like researching or perception rolls), it can mean that the player advances the plot in the worst possible way. It works really well in a horror world, where knowledge itself can be the most dangerous threat. Succeed that Library Use roll in the Restricted Books section of the university library? You discover a passage that alludes to the evil ritual the cultists are preparing, and gives you a clue on how to disrupt it. Fail on that roll? You find a different ritual that you're pretty sure will counteract whatever the cultists are doing; and worse, you start to think it might be a really good idea. Succeed on the search roll, and you find the doctor's notes on that strange fungus he's been researching. Fail the search roll, and you find the doctor's fungus experiments when you knock a vial onto the floor and crack it.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jul 1, 2013 17:01:43 GMT -8
So now to the part of the story Hyvemind will like less. After the game everyone likes it and my friend Eddie says “Hey what about our Savage Worlds Ghostbusters game?” LOL. Well, at least you got your group to play Dungeon World malifer. Glad to hear it went well, too. Yeah, I don't care for Savage Worlds all that much (as everyone knows), but I know some people do. And just as I believe in the right to free speech, I believe that every gamer has the right to play any game they want. Yes, even RIFTS. Hell, you can even play F.A.T.A.L if you really want to. I'll just be judging you real hard. I had a very basic slay the evil beast scenario I had downloaded mostly for monster stats. The “Dungeon” I just made the fuck up. “I want to search for a secret door” Discern Realities = 11 Alright now there is a secret door with treasure. You've now discovered my big "secret" to running these hippie indie games: You just make that shit up as you go! Just listen to the players for hints of what they think would be cool. Half the time you throw them a bone (meaning you give them what they want), and the other half of the time (roughly), you screw them over. "Oh man, I'll bet there's an Orc den around here somewhere. Where else could all these Orcs come from?" *DING!* There's an Orc den nearby now. Thanks. "How awesome would it be if there were one of those Khazad-dûm style bridges?" *POOF!* Of course there'll be one somewhere in this adventure. "Man, Wraiths are the last thing we want to run up against in these crypts." *BLAMO!* Guess what you guys will be dealing with soon? Mutha-fucking Wraiths! You don't have to be that obvious about it of course. You don't have to wait for the players to directly vocalize their ideas like that. You look for little clues. What classes and starting move selections have the players made? Those are cues. What Bonds have they filled in, and with who? Those are cues, too. How are their characters interacting with each other? What do they look for or focus on during play? All of those things tell you what the players find interesting, and so you incorporate those elements into the game. It doesn't have to be right away either. You can just hint at things to come, ask leading questions to get more information, and then work that element in later. You're not cheating by doing things this way. You're ensuring player buy-in. Which is always a good thing. By the way malifer, that initial question for the Thief and the use of the Bond when he lost his bag? Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Also, the Cleric kissing the Paladin? I thought you were playing Dungeon World, not Monsterhearts. Finally, to answer your question, maxinstuff I find the RAW for awarding Bennies to vague. Also, RAW, they are yet another thing the GM has to keep track of. You have to remember everyone's Hinderances and remember to hand out Bennies when appropriate. The GM already has enough on their plates just from running the game. Plus, RAW you always get three Bennies at the start of every session. That devalues them in my opinion. I'll always get more, so they don't really have that much value. Lastly, as stork said during the episode, sometimes failure takes the story in a completely unexpected and awesome direction. So, while I like the idea behind Bennie-style player rewards, I don't like how Savage Worlds handles them. Also, on player agency and social skills. You don't call bullshit when the combat monster gives a great description of their masterful swordplay, but then gets a 1 on their attack roll. RIght? So why do people call bullshit when the face character gives a masterful oration, but then Storks their Charisma check? It's the same thing. As henryhankovitch said, maybe you had the crowd eating out of your hand, but then one jackass near the back chucks a rock, sparking a riot. Maybe you knew all the right things to say to get past that guard, but his superior chewed his ass out the day before and he's not letting anyone get past him no matter what. Perhaps you've got all the right pickup lines and are just the bartender's type. That failed seduction roll might mean you said something that, while totally meaningless to anyone else, just happened to reminded her of her douche bag ex boyfriend. Whoever had that line about "Players saying social skills don't matter is like saying they don't want to take damage from that arrow" was spot on.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 1, 2013 20:04:27 GMT -8
Also, on player agency and social skills. You don't call bullshit when the combat monster gives a great description of their masterful swordplay, but then gets a 1 on their attack roll. RIght? I don't know about calling bullshit, but they certainly miss or fail whatever it was they were trying to do. In fact in my games if you roll a 1 you likely fumble in some way, possibly hurting yourself or an ally. This goes for both attack, skill and persuade/other checks. To me player agency is being able make the attempt. If you fail your roll, you fail the task. End of story. Role play the effects of the roll. You have stats/skills for a reason, to give you an x% chance at success in a given task. If it isn't on the sheet or in the rules I wil amke a ruling (probably a trait roll), but you will never be guaranteed success - if there is risk involved you roll the dice Dungeon World is obviously VERY different to this, and is a good example of how different systems (particularly modern 'hippy' systems) treat agency differently. It sounds like there is a transfer of power from the dice mechanics to the players written into the system.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jul 1, 2013 22:28:44 GMT -8
Dungeon World is obviously VERY different to this, and is a good example of how different systems (particularly modern 'hippy' systems) treat agency differently. It sounds like there is a transfer of power from the dice mechanics to the players written into the system. Actually, I don't think Dungeon World (or any of the * World games) are all that different @ maxinstuff. I think @ JazzisBlues kind of oversold the interpretive nature of dice rolls a bit in his description during the episode. I'll provide both a combat and a social example. In Dungeon World, when you narrate your character attacking an enemy in melee combat, you're probably going to trigger the Hack & Slash Move. The Move says: So if you get a strong hit (a 10+), you deal damage to whatever you're fighting and don't take damage yourself. You're also given the opportunity to deal extra damage, but at the cost of taking some yourself. If you get a weak hit (a 7-9) you both deal damage to and take damage from whatever you're fighting. You'll notice that there are no instructions for what happens on a miss (a 6 or less). That's so the GM can pick any GM Move they think is appropriate for the situation. Maybe the GM chooses "Deal damage" and has monster deal damage to you. Maybe they choose "Separate them" and narrates how the monster has forced you back into an adjoining room away from the rest of the group. Maybe they choose "Put someone in a spot" and narrate the monster ducking under your swing and heading straight for the soft and squishy Wizard. Whatever makes sense for the situation and will be exciting. When you're in a social situation, the character's action will probably trigger a Parley Move. The move says: So if you get a strong hit, the NPC will do what you want, if you promise to do something for them. Whether you keep your promise or not is completely up to you. On a weak hit, you have to give the NPC some concrete assurance that you won't reneg on your promise, and if you do, they do what you want. This is intentionally vague so that it covers lots of possible situations. "Leverage" is you having something the NPC wants or possibly doesn't want. Interrogating a Goblin prisoner about a secret cave entrance? Leverage is you saying "Tell me what I want to know and I won't kill you!" On a 10+, your threat alone was enough to get the Goblin to spill the beans. Will you actually spare his life? That's for you to decide. On a 7-9, your "concrete assurance" could either be untying him, "Look, I'm doing this in good faith" or cutting off one of his fingers, "I'm showing you that I will not hesitate to kill you if you don't cooperate." Or how about the classic seducing a barmaid at the local tavern. Leverage could be you saying "I'll write a love ballad about your beauty putting the Gods themselves to shame!" or possibly saying "I won't tell your father you're planning to run away to marry the blacksmith's son tomorrow night." On a strong hit, your word or threat is enough motivation. On a weak hit, you're going to have to show the girl you can make good on your promise. Sing her the first verse of that song you promised, or show her that you absolutely will tell her father about her plans. Just like Hack & Slash, what happens on a miss is left blank. It's the GM's job to pick something interesting and exciting based on what's happening. So, there is a lot of player agency in * World games because of how the system is written. The Moves are intentionally broad so that regardless of what action a player has their character attempt, there will be a rule to cover it. All of the games have a "catch all" move that handles anything not covered by other moves. Act Under Fire in Apocalypse World; Defy Danger in Dungeon World; Act Under Pressure in Monster of the Week; Hold Steady in Monsterhearts. Whenever a character does something that shouldn't be an auto-success but isn't covered by another move, you use this one. Another way to look at the system is like this. On a 10+, the player will most likely get to narrate what happens to their character. On a 7-9, the GM will present the player with a choice (and their likely consequences) but the player still has total agency and lots of narrative control. On a 6 or less, the GM gets full narrative control. If they're nice they'll ask for player input about what happens, but there is nothing saying that they have to. GMs have to be careful not to overdo it on player misses though. That's an easy way to take away player agency. In our Monsterhearts game, my PC, a high school-aged girl, attempted to Turn On one of the football players while at a party in order to get some leverage on him. I Storked the roll, and the GM narrated how my PC gave into peer pressure and was now chugging drinks while surrounded by the football team. I started to tell the GM that my character wouldn't do that, and that she should at least get a chance (meaning a dice roll) to not end up in that situation. I kept my mouth shut though, because saying "No, that doesn't happen" would have been me weaseling out of what the mechanics dictated. It would have been the same thing as saying "No, I do hit that Orc" when you get a 1 on your attack roll.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 1, 2013 23:03:35 GMT -8
How..... well written. Is that a direct quote from the book? That covers my understanding of how persuation should work very neatly - you must have leverage (something in it for them), you must make your charisma check - and there are different degrees of success. Must..... not..... be tempted..... by the DARK HIPPY SIDE!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAFLARGLFLARGLFLARGL........
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jul 1, 2013 23:13:15 GMT -8
How..... well written. Is that a direct quote from the book? That is the exact wording of the Parley move from the Dungeon World book.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 1, 2013 23:28:45 GMT -8
I find your lack of faith disturbing...
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 2, 2013 0:39:18 GMT -8
I find your lack of faith disturbing... I find your disturbed state arousing. Hippy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 2:26:06 GMT -8
The way I use bennies, and this was mentioned by others here, is that any benny spent by a PC goes to the GM. I start with none, but they now know every 'woops, re-do!' will give the enemy an edge later.
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