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Post by malifer on Jul 9, 2013 5:31:06 GMT -8
I said this in the chat room but I don't think it got noticed. The problem with min maxing is not simply optimizing one's character. The problem is when a player consistently finds feedback loops in the system, and then constantly does things that makes everybody else wait around while they roll 1 million dice. Before I go off on this subject, let me tell you a story I think all you will enjoy. The group I used to play with before I moved to Texas had some min maxers of various flavors in it. One of them (Mr. "I've always wanted to do this" mentioned below), was pretty notorious. One time he brought a character to whichever of them was DM'ing and it was a SUPER cheesy build. The DM said that he could play this, technically "legal", character on one condition. This character would be cursed. At random intervals, a dire bear (named "Bo-Bo") would jump out of nowhere and hump said character for some amount of time that I don't quite recall... So, occasionally, one of the guys would let slip some plan for their character and it would illicit the response, "Hmmm, that makes Bo-Bo... randy." Anyway. Examples of what is really the problem with min maxing above and beyond simply optimizing the character. In one case I had this one guy (let's call him J) in my old group. Any time he said, "I've always wanted to do this", we would all throw our pencils on the table and go get a sandwich as he summoned four or five hastened enlarged elephants that then surrounded the boss, making it impossible for anybody else to get a shot in edgewise. (Or something like that.) In another case there was this thing that my group and I called "Hamloaf". In fourth edition another friend played a paladin, any time he rolled a crit it would set off cascade of "if/than" conditions that meant that he would be rolling for five damn minutes at least. The last straw happened when he killed the big bad we'd been chasing since the game pretty much began several years prior in real time. But nobody was there to see the guy die, because Hamloaf occurred and everybody had gone into the kitchen to refresh their drinks, get snacks, and just generally stand around the refrigerator chatting while the player of the paladin got out the flowchart he made to track the cascade of abilities and rolled his bazillion attacks and points of damage. (I'm reasonably sure that this particular event contributed to the eventual meltdown of the group.) Now this is what the player of the paladin pretty much lived for. And I don't begrudge him doing what he enjoyed. However, it very much impacted the fun of the rest of us. Not only would the game come to a screeching halt any time he rolled a crit, but he would comment at other players (namely me) when we would use abilities that allowed a re-roll if an attack missed for anybody but him. There is a difference that just being optimized and being super cheesy, hogging all the turns just because you can. You know, I noticed Hamloaf in my recent 4e game. There is a Sword Mage (when last I played 4e there was no such thing) and it is just stupid everything he can do. It's funny how 4e was about balance, but my fighter is back to being lame.
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Jul 9, 2013 7:57:44 GMT -8
Stork has mentioned his philosophy on choosing skills based on what sort of activities his character has been pursuing in game a few times now. While I agree that choosing strange or obscure skills with no justification in-game hurts the suspension of disbelief, I also think this can be taken too far. No game I've ever played in fills 100% of the character's time with on-camera events, and it's always assumed in our games that you're keeping busy with something during that downtime, whether it's working on a kata, tinkering on your armor, or reading a book. I agree, and I also think it depends on how gritty/realistic the game is. In the Star Wars game I ran a few months ago, I told the players that I wasn't going to make them roleplay the acquisition of new skills unless their previous inability to do something had been a major plot point. It seems perfectly in keeping with the pulpy style of the movies for a character to say, "What? I've always been able to fix a droid/pilot a spaceship/whatever."
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jul 9, 2013 10:32:48 GMT -8
I have had to explain what I do for a hobby to so many people who have no idea what it means when I say I "roleplay" that I've sort of worked up a general response:
Me: "So, when you leave today what are you going to do?" Them: "Go home?" Me: "Sure ok, but how are you getting there? Walking, taking the bus, driving..." Them: "I'll drive." Me: "Ok, so you clock out and you head out into the parking lot and its hot and you really want to be in your car so you can turn the A/C on, right?" Them: "Sure." Me: "Ok, so you get to the car and start it and get the A/C going right away, what now?" Them: "I drive home." Me: "Sure, but driving is a complex activity and has a lot of chances for danger so we'll have to see if you can make it in one piece. How long have you been driving?" Them: "15 years" Me: Ok, so we'll say that you are fairly skilled. That means you will get a bonus of +6 to your die roll(depending on system of course) for this skill. You roll the dice because there is a chance you can make a mistake and something bad can happen. The more skilled you are, the less of a chance, but there is a chance. So roll the die." Them: *rolls die* Me: "Ok, that's a 10 on the die, plus the 6 bonus for being skilled. That gives you a 16. I judge the traffic and such from here to your house to be maybe a 15 in difficulty so you make it home just fine. That's roleplaying."
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daniel
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 217
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Post by daniel on Jul 9, 2013 12:16:08 GMT -8
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Post by Stu Venable on Jul 9, 2013 12:27:57 GMT -8
The other problem is the poor sap has a 25% chance of an accident on the way home.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jul 9, 2013 13:42:15 GMT -8
You guys suck.
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maxinstuff
Supporter
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HJRP1005
Jul 9, 2013 14:05:06 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by maxinstuff on Jul 9, 2013 14:05:06 GMT -8
Yeah! Fuckin' min maxers. If sirguido says there is a 25% to crash your car on your way home then IT IS SO. You guys are forgetting the zombies.
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daniel
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 217
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Post by daniel on Jul 10, 2013 4:57:19 GMT -8
No see what you need to do is take some disads ...
You take - Baby got run over - Wife got killed by highwaymen - Bad leg
That way you can take the Road warrior advantage and still have enough over to pimp out your car
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 10, 2013 5:45:40 GMT -8
MAD MAX!!! cause his name is Max and he's Mad . . . I'll never know why the American distributors felt they had to retitle it . . . 'Road Warrior' sounds like some counter culture code for a perverse sexual practice not dissimilar to dressing up as one of the Village People . . . Aaron
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Post by guitarspider on Jul 10, 2013 6:45:43 GMT -8
Finally got to listen. I've little to say that has not been said except:
There's fairly new series called Parade's End with Benedict Cumberbatch, that is all about a noble navigating tradition, social responsiblities/expectations and personal interest during World War One. It's probably better inspiration material than Downton Abbey, because it's far less soap-y.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jul 10, 2013 10:12:50 GMT -8
I always had a sweetspot for this song, being born in Sherbrooke and schooled for two years in the Martitimes. For my $0.95, this is more evocative than the Star Spangled Banner. Admittedly it would make a bad anthem for Canada. Or, well, may be not! I had to stop an hour into the podcast as I am exhausted but I thought, maybe, someone would like to read this about the Northwest Passage song - sort of a Canadian history lesson for y'all. myclass.peelschools.org/ele/8/23435/Lessons/Northwest%20Passage.doc
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Post by gina on Jul 10, 2013 10:52:04 GMT -8
Stork has mentioned his philosophy on choosing skills based on what sort of activities his character has been pursuing in game a few times now. While I agree that choosing strange or obscure skills with no justification in-game hurts the suspension of disbelief, I also think this can be taken too far. No game I've ever played in fills 100% of the character's time with on-camera events, and it's always assumed in our games that you're keeping busy with something during that downtime, whether it's working on a kata, tinkering on your armor, or reading a book. I agree, and I also think it depends on how gritty/realistic the game is. In the Star Wars game I ran a few months ago, I told the players that I wasn't going to make them roleplay the acquisition of new skills unless their previous inability to do something had been a major plot point. It seems perfectly in keeping with the pulpy style of the movies for a character to say, "What? I've always been able to fix a droid/pilot a spaceship/whatever." Yup, totally agree, The Northman, was thinking the same thing as I listened (read: talked at my iPhone). :) And nice way to express the expectation for your players, kaitoujuliet. I'd then mainly feel compelled to loop in the GM if my character development was something that wasn't already implied or obvious through session gameplay. Nature/nurture, sometimes environment or events will cause a character to develop in a way that wasn't initially apparent upon character creation. (cue: training montage)
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HJRP1005
Jul 10, 2013 11:38:13 GMT -8
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Post by joecrak on Jul 10, 2013 11:38:13 GMT -8
I'm teetering on being able to sign up to this one. I need to test out some stuff on the computer I'd have to play on for it. Plus I need to download and learn Fantasy Grounds. Do I need a camera with this one? or just a mic? I think I'm going to abandon the fantasy grounds aspect this time through. Just play it on roll20 and G+. Also I think I'll bump the system back down to Warhammer 2e because roll20 doesn't have the symbol dice for 3e. Please don't! I love 3e it's so easy to learn because of the dice. Also there is an online dice roller for 3e that I have used in line with hangouts and roll20. brokentome.com/tools/DiceRoller.aspx
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Post by ericfromnj on Jul 10, 2013 17:21:10 GMT -8
MAD MAX!!! cause his name is Max and he's Mad . . . I'll never know why the American distributors felt they had to retitle it . . . 'Road Warrior' sounds like some counter culture code for a perverse sexual practice not dissimilar to dressing up as one of the Village People . . . Aaron I thought Mad Max was called Mad Max but the second movie was called The Road Warrior...
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 10, 2013 18:03:52 GMT -8
Huzzah! Lets hear it for the ever helpful Jacker community! With that ap for roll20 I'm good to go to run it 3rd edition. Now if we could find two more players...
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