sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Aug 12, 2013 16:53:47 GMT -8
I can't wait to hear what the L5R sages of the boards have to say about this episode.
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on Aug 12, 2013 19:59:37 GMT -8
New episode of L5R is out??? Hurray!!!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 5:57:46 GMT -8
So a quick comment / question about the whole situation the gang find themselves in at the start of the episode. Listening to the episode it's clear that the way Stu has set the game up is that the samurai pledge their loyalty to their individual lord (in this case Renjiro) which based on my (limited) knowledge of feudal Japan is how it would have workded. Given the game focuses on within clan politics it makes a lot of sense for Stu to approach it that way.
My understanding of the L5R setting though was that samurai pledged their loyalty not to an individual lord but to a major family of the clan (so in this game that would be the Asahina) and thus in the situation as presented the group aren't ronin as they're still loyal to the Crane (though they're being set up to be made ronin if try and fail to reinstate Renjiro). So my question is is that a fair interpretation of the L5R setting as presented in the canon setting? I'm curious as depending on how my own game goes long term there is potential for the direct lord of the PCs to be deposed if the group screws things up.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 13, 2013 8:26:03 GMT -8
So a quick comment / question about the whole situation the gang find themselves in at the start of the episode. Listening to the episode it's clear that the way Stu has set the game up is that the samurai pledge their loyalty to their individual lord (in this case Renjiro) which based on my (limited) knowledge of feudal Japan is how it would have workded. Given the game focuses on within clan politics it makes a lot of sense for Stu to approach it that way. My understanding of the L5R setting though was that samurai pledged their loyalty not to an individual lord but to a major family of the clan (so in this game that would be the Asahina) and thus in the situation as presented the group aren't ronin as they're still loyal to the Crane (though they're being set up to be made ronin if try and fail to reinstate Renjiro). So my question is is that a fair interpretation of the L5R setting as presented in the canon setting? I'm curious as depending on how my own game goes long term there is potential for the direct lord of the PCs to be deposed if the group screws things up. You are correct in your interpretation as to how the L5R system works, yes.
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on Aug 13, 2013 16:45:32 GMT -8
Yeah, but I think the whole situation creates a grey area in the Bushido code a bit, where loyalties could be up for interpretation. I would say it comes down to who is in the right, Renjiro or his brother? And that is likely a matter for the clan's courts to decide (truthfully the whole L5R campaign could spin off into court at this juncture, given the time of year and situation. Of course if that happened I'm sure Kimi would simply explode of bloodlust).
Of course if they were to back the wrong horse in court likely they would be formally dismissed by the winner, making them actually Ronin.
Of course Stu can set it up however he wants, as long as they keep making episodes dammit!
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 13, 2013 18:25:30 GMT -8
Here's the way I see it. The oath of fealty is personal. I, as a samurai, pledge my life and my sword to my daimyo. In return for my service, he provides me with a means of support. Certainly, I'm part of a larger Family and Clan, to whom I also have a duty.
As a samurai, it is my place in the celestial order to serve. In the celestial order, it is the daimyo's place to direct his or her samurai for the good of the Family, Clan and Empire. The daimyo-less samurai who is part of a clan can serve the clan, sure, but how?
To take it upon myself to do what I *think* is in the clan's best interest is presumptuously usurping the role reserved for the daimyo.
tl/dr: a samurai with no daimyo is a boat without a rudder.
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 13, 2013 19:17:51 GMT -8
So a quick comment / question about the whole situation the gang find themselves in at the start of the episode. Listening to the episode it's clear that the way Stu has set the game up is that the samurai pledge their loyalty to their individual lord (in this case Renjiro) which based on my (limited) knowledge of feudal Japan is how it would have workded. Given the game focuses on within clan politics it makes a lot of sense for Stu to approach it that way. My understanding of the L5R setting though was that samurai pledged their loyalty not to an individual lord but to a major family of the clan (so in this game that would be the Asahina) and thus in the situation as presented the group aren't ronin as they're still loyal to the Crane (though they're being set up to be made ronin if try and fail to reinstate Renjiro). So my question is is that a fair interpretation of the L5R setting as presented in the canon setting? I'm curious as depending on how my own game goes long term there is potential for the direct lord of the PCs to be deposed if the group screws things up. You are correct in your interpretation as to how the L5R system works, yes. I may be mistaken, and if you've got a source that says different, please, please correct me.... But, my understanding is that Stu's got it right. Sure, you pledge to the clan, but if your lord dies, and the next guy up the chain isn't insterested in your service, you're ronin. EDIT: I really haven't read many of the RPG books, and my understanding comes only from reading the stories, and the AEG forums.
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on Aug 13, 2013 21:36:40 GMT -8
Here's the way I see it. The oath of fealty is personal. I, as a samurai, pledge my life and my sword to my daimyo. In return for my service, he provides me with a means of support. Certainly, I'm part of a larger Family and Clan, to whom I also have a duty. As a samurai, it is my place in the celestial order to serve. In the celestial order, it is the daimyo's place to direct his or her samurai for the good of the Family, Clan and Empire. The daimyo-less samurai who is part of a clan can serve the clan, sure, but how? To take it upon myself to do what I *think* is in the clan's best interest is presumptuously usurping the role reserved for the daimyo. tl/dr: a samurai with no daimyo is a boat without a rudder. Doesn't the samurai serve his clan by seeking out a rudder? (of course the fun bit is which rudder)
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 13, 2013 22:18:50 GMT -8
And the rudder has to be interesting in accepting you. There's probably, I would guess, a fairly strong assumption that the next daimyo up the chain would take you in, but if you're a member of a bumpkin vassal family, I would think that's in no way guaranteed.
This is kind of what 47 Ronin is all about right? The daimyo of 47 samurai loses his temper at his lord's home and is ordered to commit sepukku. They are left lord-less -- ronin.
The film's a tragedy. The 47 did nothing wrong. They weren't kicked out of anything, they were left ronin because their lord felt he was slighted and attempted retribution. Victims of circumstance.
This seems perfectly consistent with Rokugan society. If two brothers are daimyos and have a falling out (for whatever reason) resulting in one being removed from power, the samurai of the removed are ronin by technicality. They did not pledge their loyalty to the valley. They pledged it to a man. Now that a different man is in charge (and BTW, it's not Junichiro -- spoilers), and they have not pledged loyalty to him.
The personal nature of this pledge is a story mechanic, and a nicely exploitable one, I might add. Are they still loyal to their family, their clan and the empire? Certainly. But I don't think that chain of fealty is so stringent that you cannot be severed from it by the (supposed) misdeeds of your superiors.
Though, if the party were to go to another daimyo within Asahina, they probably would be accepted -- with certain conditions -- since the Asahina tend to be pacifists and not murderers. And the Asahina probably don't care a whole lot about the honor of the Inukai family...
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Post by joecrak on Aug 14, 2013 15:06:14 GMT -8
What it comes down to is the discretion of whoever is running the game.
So in Stu's world it makes perfect sense, so that's how it works. And it does make sense.
My omen L5R games, if your daimyo dies, his chosen replacement takes over, usually his first born son.
If a scenario like what happened with Stu were to happen in my own world, it would be very grey, because the samurai, to me, don't swear themselves to a man, they swear themselves to the clan, they exist to serve the clan, and were a daimyo forced to commit seppuku, his samurai and land would likely be divided, as they might possess information the clan does not want to come out.
A group of samurai that used to control one of the wealthiest valleys of the crane clan is suddenly without a lord? And no one else in the crane has taken them in? Come join us scorpion, learn to swim. Now, what would you say about the defenses of your former valley?
Also for me, there is a protocol that must be followed, a lowly daimyo can not simply be forced to commit seppuku by his direct supervisor without grave cause, not without informing his own supervisor.
I know it doesn't matter this far in, but in the first episode wasn't their daimyo Junichiro? Renjiro was only the courtier that told them of the opportunity in the Kakita lands? Technically, if I'm remembering that right, they still serve Junichiro then.
Is the newest episode out? It's not in my iTunes and I can't find it on the site anywhere....
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 14, 2013 15:24:29 GMT -8
It won't be in iTunes until next Wednesday. Some listeners have figured our my naming convention for actual play episodes.
In between the first and second sessions, Renjiro was named daimyo of the Inukai Valley by the Crane.
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Post by joecrak on Aug 14, 2013 16:03:11 GMT -8
Curse them for teasing me in such a manner!
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Post by bloodsparrow on Aug 14, 2013 17:14:30 GMT -8
I'm terribly amused by how paranoid everyone is regarding the "honor tribunal" here on the forms.
And let record show in the last thread, that I did not think Stork's character was doing anything dishonorable. I may not be an expert in the Rokugan, but even I know that caution is not dishonorable.
That being said, in regards to the particularly important piece of information gleaned from the second visit to Scorpion Father… Someone should tell Masashi that Shinsei says, "Words are chief among the things which should not be put into a man's mouth."
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on Aug 14, 2013 19:19:14 GMT -8
Yay for honor tribunals! I think it would be a fun way to involve the community.
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merryprankster
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Posts: 243
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Post by merryprankster on Aug 14, 2013 19:19:58 GMT -8
Curse them for teasing me in such a manner! Yeah..I listen at work so I need to wait for the iTunes......Grrrrrr......
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