SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 26, 2013 4:19:53 GMT -8
I have so many things I want to say to you, but my mother told me that if you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 26, 2013 7:30:25 GMT -8
The barrier to RPGs is that it's a weird hobby.
Most of us leave "make believe" behind at some point in our childhood. Some don't and become writers, cosplayers, role-players, film makers, actors, etc.
In most of these endeavors, I think we justify why we aren't just engaging in "make believe." We "adult up" the activity to make it respectable, either to ourselves or others.
If I went to my neighbor across the street with two toy guns and a 10-gallon hat and suggested we play cowboys and indians, he'd think I was crazy. If I invited him to come play paintball with us, describing the rules (body count or capture the flag) showed him the accouterments, like the guns, the armor, walkie-talkies, etc, and described how good it is for exercise, he'd look at me entirely differently (still might think I'm weird, but probably not crazy).
The rules and maybe the accouterments are what set RPGs apart from "make believe," and while that may no longer be that important to those of us who've played for years, those things stand as real justifications for newcomers to engage in what would otherwise be a "childish activity."
Don't let your enthusiasm get in the way of newcomer's comfort level. That's my advice.
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Post by guitarspider on Aug 26, 2013 7:38:21 GMT -8
CreativeCowboy, setting can be a barrier simply because it can look like a ghetto or a complete mistery from the outside. I know lots of metalheads, but I don't understand metal. I understand how to make the music and I play metal if I desire to, I understand how to behave as a metalhead, I understand what metalsheads tell me it's about, but deep down I don't get what it's all about. As a result, if I were to pretend to be a metalhead, I'd be a walking caricature. I'd feel completely out of place. Now it just so happens that roleplaying games cover any topic you might be interested in, from going on a date to slaying dragons, from being a minion beholden to a master to being a colonizer in the pacific islands. Why in the world would I not start people off with something they not only can relate to, but that deeply matters to them? Saying "it's not a novel, get over yourself" is just the kind of barrier that I'm talking about. It's saying "you meet me on my ground, not the other way around." But if we want to grow the hobby, we should be meeting the non-RPGers on their ground. And maybe after that the rest is not nearly as objectionable (this line of reasoning of course doesn't apply to people who already are into fantasy).
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addicted2aa
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Post by addicted2aa on Aug 26, 2013 8:28:10 GMT -8
The rules and maybe the accouterments are what set RPGs apart from "make believe," and while that may no longer be that important to those of us who've played for years, those things stand as real justifications for newcomers to engage in what would otherwise be a "childish activity." Don't let your enthusiasm get in the way of newcomer's comfort level. That's my advice.
While I completely agree with your closer, I've never understood the first point. I still play make believe all the time. Any time I have a hypothetical conversation, that's make believe. Hell my friends and I dovetail in funny voices and play acting as a regular part of our interactions. The reason I prefer rules and structure, why I prefer RPG's, is it makes it make believe more interesting. It gives you another thing to interact with, another little puzzle to solve. To your cowboy vs paintball example, one of those things is likely to be a more fun activity. Hint, it's not the one with hats. Why? Well paintball has a threat associated with it that toy guns don't. Getting hit stings. So when you're playing, you're adrenaline is going to be pumping much more. You can also tell when a person gets hit and how much ammo you have. It is a more engaging game than playing pretend on almost all levels. You talk about aldutizing playing pretend as if we've lost something by adding rules and complexities. As if we're just trying to deceive ourselves that we aren't being kids any more. FUCK THAT. I'm proud that most of my leisure time is spent doing things I would have enjoyed when I was 5. I enjoy fun and think that anyone who takes life serious is missing the point. I also enjoy the added complexities of established RP. I play Baron Von Munchhassuen(sp?) all the time and that's blatantly with no apologies just straight up playing pretend. That said, I'd much rather sit down and play a more structured RPG. It's a fuller, richer experience, that gives more than a momentary escape to imagination land and a few laughs.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 26, 2013 9:18:17 GMT -8
You are describing how what I said doesn't apply to you, and that's great.
That does not mean it doesn't apply to other people, and perhaps most people, and if the discussion is about growing the hobby, ignoring this -- or at least not being mindful of it -- severely limits our potential group of hobbyists.
I think most people would be hung-up about it -- at least at first.
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oldnemrod
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Post by oldnemrod on Aug 26, 2013 20:42:51 GMT -8
I'm not sure if it was mentioned in this RPG podcast or another, but we like working within constraints. I believe that is where the "adult up" of make believe rises. We need the rules to challenge us to be as creative as possible but still adhere to a few limitations. I also think it is because, as we have grown up, we have hammered into us a desire for purpose. There are several instances where I remember pretending to be a Beast Mode Transformer or a super hero with a blanket for a cape. Each of those times I remember just enjoying pretending to be something awesome. I don't remember any villains. I don't remember any missions. Rules are there to make our imaginations justified, productive members of our psyches.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 26, 2013 21:38:46 GMT -8
Yup.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Aug 27, 2013 0:34:24 GMT -8
You are describing how what I said doesn't apply to you, and that's great. That does not mean it doesn't apply to other people, and perhaps most people, and if the discussion is about growing the hobby, ignoring this -- or at least not being mindful of it -- severely limits our potential group of hobbyists. I think most people would be hung-up about it -- at least at first. I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Maybe what we are lacking is a proper gateway product. I don't mean a beginner box of a fuoly fledged RPG, I mean something in between an RPG and board game. Something with plenty of structure to it. I remember playing heroquest as a kid (and more recently when a new copy was given as a gift). That thing is awesome. Fits in a monopoly sized box, but contains like 20 adventures (dungeon crawls) that take hours each, and you'll die horribly most of the time. But there is block text for the GM to read, flavourful character sheets, you name your PC and draw a sigil/coat of arms in a box. There is also character progression. There are basically no products like that that I am aware of these days. The only similar example I can name is Descent which costs a bomb and the box is the size of chernobyl.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 27, 2013 4:27:25 GMT -8
How about the D&D games like Castle Ravenloft?
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Aug 27, 2013 4:33:07 GMT -8
For $65? That alone would frighten off prospective gamers.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 27, 2013 8:40:08 GMT -8
I remember playing heroquest as a kid (and more recently when a new copy was given as a gift). That thing is awesome. Fits in a monopoly sized box, but contains like 20 adventures (dungeon crawls) that take hours each, and you'll die horribly most of the time. But there is block text for the GM to read, flavourful character sheets, you name your PC and draw a sigil/coat of arms in a box. There is also character progression. There are basically no products like that that I am aware of these days. The only similar example I can name is Descent which costs a bomb and the box is the size of chernobyl. That was 1st edition Descent. And yeah it would have been out of my newspaper route budget (BUT NOT ANYMORE ). I love that game, but it definitely doesn't have the same level of 'crossover' between board game and rpg that Heroquest had or Warhammer Quest another great one. Honestly the board game that currently fits that description best for me has been Arkham Horror (Call of Cthulhu theme). The fact that it is a cooperative game (players vs the board) really helps build a space to role play the situations out a bit. Second Edition Descent still features the lovely 'adversarial DM' dropping pits and monsters on the hapless heroes. But the box got smaller. But I'd agree that board games often serve as a nice way to transition into RPGs. But the FATAL board game should be approached with caution... Cheers. Curt J.
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addicted2aa
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Post by addicted2aa on Aug 27, 2013 10:45:08 GMT -8
How about the D&D games like Castle Ravenloft? Or the Chtulhu adventure board games. And really, 4e pretty much was the middle ground between a board game and a RP game already.
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oldnemrod
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Post by oldnemrod on Aug 28, 2013 7:39:18 GMT -8
At work with a random thought. I agree that a good gateway product is essential to pique the interest of the unitiated. Another good way to attract people is not showing up with your fanboy shirt that hasn't been washed in weeks, bathing, having knowledge of current events not involved with the hobby(bat-fleck doesnt count).
I propose a special day. A game day where all that play, play in public well dressed and carrying a newspaper. Guys in suits and ties carrying briefcases full of core books and character sheets. Let's be the Mad Men(and Mad Ladies) of our hobby. Lets work to actively rid the stereotype of cheeto dusted fatbeards.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 28, 2013 8:19:27 GMT -8
At work with a random thought. I agree that a good gateway product is essential to pique the interest of the unitiated. Another good way to attract people is not showing up with your fanboy shirt that hasn't been washed in weeks, bathing, having knowledge of current events not involved with the hobby(bat-fleck doesnt count). I propose a special day. A game day where all that play, play in public well dressed and carrying a newspaper. Guys in suits and ties carrying briefcases full of core books and character sheets. Let's be the Mad Men(and Mad Ladies) of our hobby. Lets work to actively rid the stereotype of cheeto dusted fatbeards. Good thing we are getting away from hyperbolic jehovah's witness style proselytizing... This whole discussion, as they tend to do has swerved waaaaay off the original post. "What are you doing to grow the hobby ?" YOU Not hypothetical you, not the ROYAL WE, not the hyvemynd (enjoy SeptemberCon you lucky bastard), not even the Gallery of Peanuts. Aside from flame igniting words about 'responsibility' and such. What have you done that has made gaming more accessible, brought in more players, and in general increased YOUR fun because of it. These ifs and maybes are an interesting intellectual exercise, but what have YOU done that works. If you have done nothing and desire to do nothing thats fine with me, but that doesn't help me. I think telling people what they should or should not do (especially americans, especially gamers! you should try telling an alaskan what they should or should not do...) makes for lovely burning smells and hackles being raised. But, it doesn't help me think of new ways to INCREASE MY FUN with games and get more people involved. The emphasis will always be on the FUN. Its a game. If it feels like obligation or work...It is now no longer FUN...it is work and I would like to get paid please. So, maybe to steer this good ship away from the iceberg of social responsibility (trying out some non-train metaphors) What are YOU doing to help grow the hobby that you enjoy. What was fun about it ? What might you do differently? Again if you are not into that then you don't need to respond. Although I'm sure YOU will. Have a lovely day citizen. All praise Friend Computer! Cheers, Curt J.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Aug 28, 2013 10:12:20 GMT -8
Board games can serve excellent first rung for discovering which folks can then move to the next level.
I have a friend who plays lots of boardgames cause he likes them. 2-player ones, 4-player table ones, 8+ party games, etc. He has board game nights (like on birthdays and other random occasions) and invites all sorts of people over: work acquaintances, close friends, gamer friends, etc. and tries to get them in even when they have no experience. What's great, is that he isn't shy at all about coming out with, "I mean, I like board games and all, but *really* I'm into role playing games/D&D." And some very small subset will take the bait.
I was one of those that took that bait (was already planning on getting back into the hobby by GMing, but I joined his group to jumpstart that process as a player).
As D.T. says, there are games that will definitely work towards discovering who would be into RP-ing, for example many of those cooperative ones come to mind: Pandemic, Red November, and of course the Cthulhu-themed ones shown above.
Obviously, if you aren't into these games, than this won't be the method for you in getting people into the RP hobby, but for my friend, it works wonders... he got one of his roommates into their regular game by starting her off on board games. Now she's a weekly accomplice.
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