D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 22, 2013 9:56:51 GMT -8
Just because I love that scene... I haven't finished the episode yet, but I do like the idea of using this "gaming under the microscope" (to quote Stork) opportunity to discuss what constitutes honor gain/loss in L5R. So...maybe we could do it as a poll ? Who gained 1,2,3,4th highest honor ?
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 22, 2013 10:55:28 GMT -8
In order to do so fairly, we need to know what their honor ranks were going into this session.
Oh, and btw... Kimi has one m good sir.
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Post by joecrak on Aug 22, 2013 12:20:34 GMT -8
I finished and have so many comments I will refrain on, not sure how many others have listened to it yet.
In terms of honor losses/gains, I don't think we should say how much they lose, or gain, unless we are divulged their current ranks.
Instead I think we should pipe in and say moments that would have caused said loss or gain.
Like if Stork (cause we love picking on him) had used a low skill, we should be like "stork used a low skill! Check the chart!" But then Stork also showed compassion to an enemy, we pipe in, and the chart should be checked, a lot of times these things can balance themselves out.
I think they were mostly on average for this episode, I loved when Stork was about to politely refuse the dinner, cause they are ronin and undeserving.
Stork almost, in my mind, committed a breach of etiquette, blasphemous, but I'm pretty sure he was being out of character in regards to his talk of Kimi and her abilities to commune with the Kami.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 22, 2013 12:22:50 GMT -8
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 22, 2013 12:29:43 GMT -8
The striking of the prone opponent I think would be a cause for honor loss since they are Asahina. In the standard Rokugan setting the Asahina are strict pacifists, so even though the need for martial folk is there I think that compassion would be expected as well. Dude was immobilized...
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Post by joecrak on Aug 22, 2013 13:31:49 GMT -8
True, but in session 1, it was stated they are from the black sheep militant hidden corner of the Asahina, so I think that can be overlooked.
Plus, they were fighting ninja, if they were recognizable as ninja, all samurai have a strict code to execute those honor less dogs upon sight and recognition. So I think that example is fine, but lets see what the majority say.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 22, 2013 14:13:23 GMT -8
+1 honor to Stu for bad ass fight scene narration.
"What's he got a four gallon heart? Longest heart beat ever!" -CADave.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 23, 2013 4:19:26 GMT -8
I'm not sure there were any real honor GAINS in this, I think(as in most of my experience) the gains and losses were pretty much a wash. The torture isn't dishonorable as long as the samurai isn't doing it. Now... you let your ronin associate do it which could be construed as dishonorable. Letting someone else perform a dishonorable act(and in a way encouraging it) is also dishonorable in and of itself. I would consider dropping Dave an honor point or two for that one, and I still think Stork should take a slight hit for whacking a prone opponent, but hey... group consensus. Other than that I think its fine.
Oh and btw Dave...
P.S.: I love you.
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on Aug 23, 2013 16:35:26 GMT -8
I agree with Dave losing some honor for the torture since he was basically condoning/encouraging another to commit a dishonorable act. As for Stork, normally I would encourage any form of honor loss for him, but in the instance of hitting the prone ninja I think it's a wash. If it had been a samurai certainly a loss of honor would be in order, but since it was a ninja (and therefore less than human) I think it's OK. That said, had Stork NOT hit the prone ninja I think a gain might have been in order (depending on where stork is in the honor spectrum).
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 23, 2013 17:15:16 GMT -8
Just 'cuz I love a giant table!
GAINS/LOSSES BY HONOR RANK
Honor 0 1-2 3-4 5-6 7-8 9-10 Accepting a bribe 0 0 -3 -4 -7 -8 Accepting responsibility for a superior’s shameful action 8 7 6 4 3 3 Acknowledging a superior opponent 5 4 4 2 2 0 Aiding a wounded enemy 9 8 6 6 5 3 Being an accomplice to a heinous crime -1 -4 -8 -12 -16 -20 Being an accomplice to a minor crime 0 -1 -4 -4 -8 -8 Breach of etiquette, blasphemous -1 -6 -10 -10 -16 -20 Breach of etiquette, major 0 -2 -2 -2 -6 -6 Breach of etiquette, minor 0 0 -1 -2 -2 -2 Disloyalty to lord, spouse, or superior 0 -2 -6 -10 -14 -18 Duped into performing a criminal act -1 -4 -8 -12 -16 -18 Duped into performing a disloyal act 0 -2 -4 -6 -10 -14 Duped into performing a foolish act 0 -2 -4 -4 -6 -8 Disobeying a lord’s command 0 -2 -2 -6 -6 -10 Enduring an insult to your ancestors 0 -2 -4 -4 -6 -8 Enduring an insult to yourself 2 2 2 0 0 2 Enduring an insult to your family or clan 0 0 -2 -2 -4 -4 Facing a superior foe in the name of your family 8 6 5 4 3 2 Fleeing from battle 0 -2 -4 -6 -8 -10 Following orders despite personal misgivings 6 4 0 0 -2 -4 Fulfi lling a promise despite great personal cost 10 8 6 4 2 0 Giving a truthful report at your own expense 8 6 4 2 0 0 Lying to bolster your reputation 0 -2 -4 -6 -8 -10 Manipulating another into dishonorable behavior 0 -2 -4 -6 -8 -10 Politely ignoring another’s dishonorable behavior 3 2 0 0 -2 -2 Protecting your clan/family/lord’s interest despite great risk to yourself 8 8 6 6 4 2 Showing kindness to one beneath your station 6 6 4 4 2 2 Showing sincere courtesy to enemies or rivals 9 7 5 2 0 0 Using a Low Skill 0 -1 -2 -3 -6 -9 Using false courtesy to gain advantage over an enemy 0 0 -2 -6 -10 -10
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on Aug 23, 2013 18:00:05 GMT -8
Your columns don't line up...at all. And you call yourself a nerd sir?! *loose 5 honor*
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 23, 2013 18:43:05 GMT -8
I'm not aboslutely sure about torture being dishonourable. After all, it's a major cornerstone of the Rokugani legal system. Magistrates pretty routinely work criminals over to get their confession. And by worked over I'm talking about things like hot irons and the like.
However, regardless of circumstance, an act that is dishonourable is never made honourable. Ueda would be justified in seeking revenge for his brother's death, but doing something dishonourable in the course of that revenge is still dishonourable.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Aug 23, 2013 19:14:44 GMT -8
I'm not aboslutely sure about torture being dishonourable. After all, it's a major cornerstone of the Rokugani legal system. Magistrates pretty routinely work criminals over to get their confession. And by worked over I'm talking about things like hot irons and the like. However, regardless of circumstance, an act that is dishonourable is never made honourable. Ueda would be justified in seeking revenge for his brother's death, but doing something dishonourable in the course of that revenge is still dishonourable. As I said, its not dishonorable if performed by a non-samurai. In this case it was performed by a samurai... and encouraged by another.
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Post by joecrak on Aug 23, 2013 19:32:09 GMT -8
Ahhh rokugani loopholes.
In totes agree with Dave losing some honor, I'd say he was an accomplice to a minor crime perhaps?
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Post by cadave on Aug 23, 2013 19:34:19 GMT -8
My Honor rank is 7 with 9 points towards 8! Glory rank is 1 with 5 points towards 2.
I am totally fine taking an honor hit for the torture if that's the way the wind blows as I feel like I'm very very committed to my npc cohorts.
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