PithyKoan
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Post by PithyKoan on Oct 17, 2013 18:16:20 GMT -8
Honestly, what I'm about to write out can easily just become more fodder for "4e is like an MMO on a table only slower with less loot."
However, I have found that it does a great job at relating, at least on a mechanics by mechanics level, to another style of online gaming: MOBAs, such as League of Legends, Smite, Heroes of Newerth, and Defense of the Ancients.
I've been playing League of Legends on and off for the past few years, and I can't help but appreciate the correlations between it and D&D 4E and the puzzling out how to re-engineer stat from game A into stat from game B and make them fit. That's just something I've always enjoyed doing.
However, I have also discovered how using the LoL champions and their associated mechanics ported into the 4e chassis can make for a game that works as an excellent bridge for a new tabletop player. Consider a 1st or 2nd level PC in 4E with only 4 or 5 powers available to them; that's on average the same number of powers or traits or features for a given League of Legends champion. I can't say if the developers on the various MOBAs are big 4E fans, but I think that there's at least some overlap between them.
I have run a successful one-shot game with the above strategy, as well. I pregenerated characters based on the "iconic" League champions (Ashe as a Seeker, Ryze as a Wizard, Master Yi as an Avenger, and others), then ran it for my friends who had only played maybe one other game of a tabletop with me as their GM previously. They loved it. Taking these champions and then giving their players the option of "Now you can do anything" that playing on the tabletop brings made for a great time. I like to think that because of sessions like this one and others that would follow have led to some even greater games and some players taking up the mantle as GM because if nothing else, they could convert their own favored games into a tabletop chassis and make it their own.
I think the only issues we ran into concerning power-to-power effectiveness is that some of the 4E powers for a 1st or 2nd level character were fancier and did more stuff overall (Go figure.)
Does anyone else have some other similar insights to using the system in non-traditional ways? (which reminds me that I still need to stalk that box of Gamma World at my local store...)
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 19, 2013 7:55:13 GMT -8
I've always felt that the characters being portrayed in 4E were much more akin to super heroes. I think you could create a rather enjoyable super's game based on the encounter/daily power concept. It would also be interesting to utilize a battle mat with a super's game. slugfests like the one in the new superman could be pretty interesting utilizing the 4e minature rules...and playing super's that need only utilize "Its clobberin' time" catch phrases might ensure that "the roleplaying DOESN'T stop when the battle mat comes out." Those League of Legends champions always felt more like super heroes as well. A Fantasy version of the marvel universe.
Nice. Interesting question.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Oct 20, 2013 2:37:37 GMT -8
While I definitely think it could be done - I think that MOBA games have a super-competitive momentum aspect to them that doesn't lend itself well to tabletop gaming.
That is unless you want that level of competitive gaming. I would liken it to games like monopoly and risk where you build up some momentum and then spend the rest of the game grinding your oponent mercilessly.
It's great online but in person it just makes people want to stab each other. Just ask my family if they want to play monopoly with me.
EDIT: Something more in the spirit of bloodbowl would be awesome though?
EDIT: How did you handle the fact that everyone could see everything all the time?
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PithyKoan
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 22
Preferred Game Systems: D&D, Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: D&D 5e (Dark Sun)
Currently Running: One-Shots
Favorite Species of Monkey: Pygmy Marmoset
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Post by PithyKoan on Oct 20, 2013 4:30:35 GMT -8
EDIT: How did you handle the fact that everyone could see everything all the time? I ran it as a rather typical fantasy game scenario first and foremost, with the trappings of League of Legends where I could put them. The players had to make their way through a forest, fighting some neutral monsters, to find a teleportation circle so they could breach a temple's defenses and stop a cultist's ritual in progress. It played as a League match only in that we started in a forest setting and I gave them 3 options of paths to follow which would lead to different monsters as a starting encounter. Once they reached the teleportation circle, the game went elsewhere. In full disclosure, all of their big bad enemies were the "Void" champions, such as Malzahar, Kassadin, several Kog'Maw, all trying to summon "the Terror of the Void" Cho'Gath into the material plane to commence the buffet. I had a list of in-game quotes on hand for a few of the non-gibberish speaking monsters, which helped in the encounter to build the creep factor and the tension. I think I also had a soundboard of in-game voices, so randomly hearing an aberrant monstrosity saying "Om nom nom nom nom nom!" lent well to the situation.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Oct 20, 2013 12:57:14 GMT -8
I see - that makes more sense to me, and I can see how that would work.
For some reason I assumed you were running it as a 'moba board game'.
Did you incorporate the fast leveling and gear aspects?
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 20, 2013 14:02:40 GMT -8
That is unless you want that level of competitive gaming. I would liken it to games like monopoly and risk where you build up some momentum and then spend the rest of the game grinding your oponent mercilessly. It's great online but in person it just makes people want to stab each other. Just ask my family if they want to play monopoly with me. Depends on the people involved. Some of us realize that it's a game, and that is the nature of that particular game, and don't hold grudges... Past the end of said game, at least. ^.^ During the game, it's perfectly acceptable to make em bleed for every inch of ground. My friend has learned that the old adage "Don't wound what you can not kill" is good advice. ^.^ And I'm speaking as a long time Diplomacy player. The game that has ended relationships. ^.^
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Oct 20, 2013 15:43:53 GMT -8
That is unless you want that level of competitive gaming. I would liken it to games like monopoly and risk where you build up some momentum and then spend the rest of the game grinding your oponent mercilessly. It's great online but in person it just makes people want to stab each other. Just ask my family if they want to play monopoly with me. Depends on the people involved. Some of us realize that it's a game, and that is the nature of that particular game, and don't hold grudges... Past the end of said game, at least. ^.^ During the game, it's perfectly acceptable to make em bleed for every inch of ground. My friend has learned that the old adage "Don't wound what you can not kill" is good advice. ^.^ And I'm speaking as a long time Diplomacy player. The game that has ended relationships. ^.^ Hell yeah - thug monopoly for life!
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PithyKoan
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 22
Preferred Game Systems: D&D, Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: D&D 5e (Dark Sun)
Currently Running: One-Shots
Favorite Species of Monkey: Pygmy Marmoset
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Post by PithyKoan on Oct 21, 2013 7:12:39 GMT -8
Did you incorporate the fast leveling and gear aspects? I did not, though I could have easily just applied some of the flavor and said, "Hey archer character, your bow is this same bow as an item from the game" and gotten a little more immersion out of it. I think I could include "fast leveling" as a game or session quirk to make it memorable, but it would have to be something with a lot of prep work done to accomplish easily. I recall the pregens from Keep on the Shadowfell having small sections with pre-determined leveling choices that could fit a similar role, but I doubt I could get a lot of use out of it for just a one-shot; it'd likely be lost with what all the players would have access to even at first or second level. As for the gear aspects, I'll be honest and admit to being terrible at giving out magic items in a regular game. I'm a big fan of the inherent bonuses found in either the Dark Sun Campaign Guide or the DMG 2. I think that you could implement some aspects of gear improvement outside of the magic item system, but in order to be close to the source material the power creep would need to skyrocket, which is great if it's only for a one-shot and everyone's on board. If it's a group of more experienced 4e players, I'd say it'd be an interesting method for giving that heroic / power gaming feeling within a single game that you'd normally need to stretch out or start higher level for. For the newer players I was dealing with, the PCs as written had plenty of powers to feel awesome.
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PithyKoan
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 22
Preferred Game Systems: D&D, Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: D&D 5e (Dark Sun)
Currently Running: One-Shots
Favorite Species of Monkey: Pygmy Marmoset
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Post by PithyKoan on Oct 21, 2013 7:23:02 GMT -8
That is unless you want that level of competitive gaming. I would liken it to games like monopoly and risk where you build up some momentum and then spend the rest of the game grinding your oponent mercilessly. It's great online but in person it just makes people want to stab each other. Just ask my family if they want to play monopoly with me. Depends on the people involved. Some of us realize that it's a game, and that is the nature of that particular game, and don't hold grudges... Past the end of said game, at least. ^.^ During the game, it's perfectly acceptable to make em bleed for every inch of ground. My friend has learned that the old adage "Don't wound what you can not kill" is good advice. ^.^ And I'm speaking as a long time Diplomacy player. The game that has ended relationships. ^.^ In that spirit of competition, I could see someone using the mechanics of 4e and its monster creation guidelines to make "equally"-powered iterations of the various champions or heroes or what have you of the MOBAs and then make at least a PvP game session out of it. I've been spending some free time making those conversions as thought exercises and many of the ones from League of Legends have an almost direct corollary if you set some generic assumptions as to how certain attributes would convert. It's a more customizable fashion for making those classic monster vs. classic monster games you may want to run around a particular holiday or event, allowing that you suspend most of the classic tropes in terms of disadvantages and just go with what the game's mechanics give you.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 21, 2013 14:35:06 GMT -8
See uselesstriviaman "grind house " game. It's in the forums somewhere...
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PithyKoan
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 22
Preferred Game Systems: D&D, Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: D&D 5e (Dark Sun)
Currently Running: One-Shots
Favorite Species of Monkey: Pygmy Marmoset
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Post by PithyKoan on Oct 22, 2013 8:49:38 GMT -8
See uselesstriviaman "grind house " game. It's in the forums somewhere... Yes, very much the same intent. (Though I am nowhere near as skilled to come up with the same playing field )
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2013 6:12:14 GMT -8
Another thing to look at to speed it up and give it more of that LoL feel is to use the sol called turbo combat rules. Half the monster HP but make all their hits do max damage. I found that when I was running 4e this tended to scare the players a little more as well as huge chunks of health would be swept away with every hit.
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Post by ilina on Feb 7, 2017 20:21:43 GMT -8
Another thing to look at to speed it up and give it more of that LoL feel is to use the sol called turbo combat rules. Half the monster HP but make all their hits do max damage. I found that when I was running 4e this tended to scare the players a little more as well as huge chunks of health would be swept away with every hit. this does speed up combat. but it tends to make minions scarier because minions don't lose any health but gain damage. it also means leaders need more heals per fight and that you need more healing surges per day. i would recommend Quadrupling healing surges per day and number of leader heals per encounter and turning daily heals into encounter heals. because you will literally blow through them. i also recommend allowing each player to use thier classes primary attribute for basic attacks off the bat. which primarily boosts the opportunity attacks of strikers and controllers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 1:38:57 GMT -8
Honestly, what I'm about to write out can easily just become more fodder for "4e is like an MMO on a table only slower with less loot." Okay, I have a bone to pick with this idea. D&D 4E was good at having a structure. Players and NPC's had roles that they were built to fulfill, and that is neither bad nor unique to D&D 4E. I've seen the same thing in champions! The only difference is that champions doesn't come preloaded with classes to pick, but lets you build what you want. Those same archetypes are present though. Some people will be strikers, some will be controllers, etc. The reason this is a good thing (not just for MMO players) is that it tells people what they are supposed to do. Your job is getting all the enemies to attack you. Your job is dealing the most damage you can. Your job is supporting the other characters. And your job is to hamper the enemies through conditions and control of the battle space. People can understand that. Further, the game gives them rules that make those roles possible! If you play 3.5, you quickly discover that getting a high AC might just result in all the enemies leaving you till last! So much for tanking. Who knew what a wizard was 'supposed' to do in 3.5? Good luck figuring it out! So why did 4e fail? There was a big disconnect from the roleplaying. Characters were a pile of abilities that didn't nessisarilly make any sense in the game world. People didn't like the pace or just how combat functioned in general (which is a cornerstone of the game). There was less of a focus on problem solving (those people who loved playing the wizard with no clear role all of a sudden had everything figured out for them). Lots of problems, but approachability was not its problem. Neither were MMO gamers.
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