sdJasper
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 30
Preferred Game Systems: GURPS, Fudge, PDQ
Currently Running: GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars
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Post by sdJasper on Oct 21, 2013 16:27:28 GMT -8
First off, I am NOT here to start a flame war or a Fate bashing thread. What I want to know is if my preconceptions of Fate are wrong, or if it is just not a game for the way I like to play.
It took me awhile, but I finally figured out what it is that bothers me about Fate: Fate seems more concerned about the meta-game than the roleplay. I'm an outsider having never run or played a game of Fate, so tell me if I am wrong, but from reading the Fate Core rules and the examples of play it seems that the game is more about "gaming" the system than taking on a role. Characters seem less like vehicles for roleplay than virtual pawn to construct a narrative around. Maybe that is what is meant by "narrative system" as the examples show more "narration" of events than in-character dialog. The whole idea of the GM and player negotiating an aspect's compel rather than an player just roleplaying out what a character with a particular Disadvantage/Flaw/Hindrance/whatever, would do in certain situations seems like the opposite of what I want at the game table. Is this how it actually pays? Doesn't this promote spotlight stealing, as every player is going to want to make their Aspects come into pay as often as they can. Or maybe it doesn't because (even worse IMO) they don't take compels because they are sitting on a big pile of Fate points? Then there is the whole action system that quantifies every action into one of four things. Again, this forces the meta-game into every action. You can't just charm a guard into telling you where the target is staying... you have to be Overcoming or Creating an Advantage, or whatever. Fate is a game that I _want_ to like. I like Fudge, I like PDQ, I _should_ like Fate, but every time I've read through the rules, I see a game about roleplaying, not a roleplaying game. Am I wrong? What is the actual play of Fate like? (and I'm not a fan of AP recordings so please don't recomend that.)
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Post by greatwyrm on Oct 21, 2013 18:09:23 GMT -8
My experiences didn't bear that out. It wasn't silky-smooth at the beginning, but my group got the hang of it. You need a group that can accept losing a roll can mean the story moves in a different direction instead of a dead-end.
Now, Aspects and Fate Points can get meta-gamey. I'd submit that's not necessarily a bad thing here. The system rewards them for playing to their disadvantages at interesting times by letting them do their cool stuff even cooler later.
Really, you'll just have to take it for a spin yourself. I'd recommend letting someone else GM the first time, just so you can get an objective look at it. If you already like Fudge and PDQ, I don't know why you wouldn't like Fate, once you see it in action.
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sdJasper
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 30
Preferred Game Systems: GURPS, Fudge, PDQ
Currently Running: GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars
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Post by sdJasper on Oct 22, 2013 5:35:46 GMT -8
You are probably right. I tried to get into a Fate game at the last con I attended, but that didn't happen. The only other GM in my group has no experience with it (and little interest). Most of the other groups in my area are running DnD of some flavor, but I'll keep an eye out. Maybe my schedule will not suck this time for JackerCon.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 22, 2013 6:40:03 GMT -8
You are probably right. I tried to get into a Fate game at the last con I attended, but that didn't happen. The only other GM in my group has no experience with it (and little interest). Most of the other groups in my area are running DnD of some flavor, but I'll keep an eye out. Maybe my schedule will not suck this time for JackerCon. YES! JiB's FATE game still has space as does Sir Guido! Hope you can make it.
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 22, 2013 7:43:14 GMT -8
Yep, I literally just purchased Fate Core 2 days ago. I've only briefly looked at it and I can understand the OP's concerns but I just don't think it's quite a problematic as it appears on paper. So it's JiB's fate game for the virgins (that's a shameless plug for 'The Great Fate Off') Aaron
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nanoboy
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 142
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Post by nanoboy on Oct 22, 2013 8:11:02 GMT -8
I've run and played Fate quite a bit, and I will tell you that it does get somewhat meta-gamey at times. You just have to roll with it. Usually, the meta-game boils down to players taking narrative control, and the game is designed for that. As long as you're okay with that, it works. I prefer more simulation than that, but I have to compromise with my group, and Fate is fun on its own merits.
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willh
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 220
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Post by willh on Oct 23, 2013 6:32:13 GMT -8
The metagamey aspects fade into the background once you get the hang of things. The thing to keep in mind is always put the fiction first. With compels it should be your playing this aspect in a way that complicates your life here's a FP, not give me a FP I'm going to play up this aspect to complicate my life. Or, this thing is happening because of your aspect, will it be a problem for you?
When it come to the four action types, you don't say I will overcome an obstacle by talking my way past the guard. You just go talk to the guard like normal, and if it's a situation worth rolling dice over you decide which action type it is based on what you're doing in the fiction.
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Post by jazzisblues on Nov 11, 2013 7:17:15 GMT -8
FATE takes a bit of adjustment of the mental process of gaming, and I tend to adjust how I do it to suit the players a bit, and I've seen it done very differently by different gms. I've gotten to play with a couple of gms who were involved in the writing of FATE Core and other FATE based materials and take much of what I think about running FATE from them. The economy of the game can be very negotiation based and I can easily see how that can be meta-gamey. I try to keep the negotiation part of it to a minimum and let players use aspects as they see fit unless something just really doesn't fit at all. I agree with willh completely (Still want to play that space game Will) to try to keep the gamey aspects in the background. The best way I've found to do this is to encourage the players to tell me what they're doing and then be generous with suggesting aspects that might fit. JiB
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2013 7:53:07 GMT -8
First off, I am NOT here to start a flame war or a Fate bashing thread. What I want to know is if my preconceptions of Fate are wrong, or if it is just not a game for the way I like to play.
It took me awhile, but I finally figured out what it is that bothers me about Fate: Fate seems more concerned about the meta-game than the roleplay. I'm an outsider having never run or played a game of Fate, so tell me if I am wrong, but from reading the Fate Core rules and the examples of play it seems that the game is more about "gaming" the system than taking on a role. Characters seem less like vehicles for roleplay than virtual pawn to construct a narrative around. Maybe that is what is meant by "narrative system" as the examples show more "narration" of events than in-character dialog. The whole idea of the GM and player negotiating an aspect's compel rather than an player just roleplaying out what a character with a particular Disadvantage/Flaw/Hindrance/whatever, would do in certain situations seems like the opposite of what I want at the game table. Is this how it actually pays? Doesn't this promote spotlight stealing, as every player is going to want to make their Aspects come into pay as often as they can. Or maybe it doesn't because (even worse IMO) they don't take compels because they are sitting on a big pile of Fate points? Then there is the whole action system that quantifies every action into one of four things. Again, this forces the meta-game into every action. You can't just charm a guard into telling you where the target is staying... you have to be Overcoming or Creating an Advantage, or whatever. Fate is a game that I _want_ to like. I like Fudge, I like PDQ, I _should_ like Fate, but every time I've read through the rules, I see a game about roleplaying, not a roleplaying game. Am I wrong? What is the actual play of Fate like? (and I'm not a fan of AP recordings so please don't recommend that.) I've run a fair number of games in FATE at this point and I've never actually seen any negotiating happen. Even with the new to RPGs players I've had I made it very clear up front that they just need to tell me what they are doing and I'd handle all the crunch (what little there is) on the back end. For instance in one game we had a player who was a troll with "Strong like Bull". When the party came to a locked door he didn't say I want to invoke my aspect and then break open the door. He looked at me and said I charge the door. He rolled low and I mentioned the aspect and let him add the bonus or reroll. He burst through the door and the game continued. In pulp mystery game we had one character who was a con man pretending to be a psychic medium. He'd found a clue through less then honest means he didn't want the party to know about so he pretended he was being spoken to by the victim of a murder when talking to a suspect. Again no mention of aspects was made but I noted that he had "flamboyant actor" and gave him a bonus against the NPC. Also you'll note that in neither of those cases were the four outcomes discussed because again I handled that behind my screen. Only once or twice in any game have I had to ask a player what exactly they were trying to achieve as the narrative structure of the game tends to make it fairly clear in most situations. The metagame is fairly transparent to everyone but the GM, which is how most RPGs should work.
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plusx2a
Strategicon/RPG Section Staff
Join me at Gamex 2014 Memorial Day Weekend May 23 - May 26
Posts: 238
Preferred Game Systems: Savage Worlds, Modiphius 2d20, FATE, PbTA
Currently Playing: Legend of the Five Rings, Cortex
Currently Running: Savage World of Solomon Cane, Modiphius Conan
Favorite Species of Monkey: Spider
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Post by plusx2a on Dec 9, 2013 17:55:08 GMT -8
This may be a bit of an odd interpretation, but it works for me fairly well in FATE. I never look at task rolls as a conflict resolution. I see actions as a way to incorporate Aspects into the story and therefore as part of creating the narrative. Task resolution in FATE rubs a lot of people the wrong way because we are used to tasks and conflicts as being the engine that drives drama and tension. When you look at it, FATE does not really work that way. In most cases, there is little to keep players from succeeding at any given thing they really want to do. It all depends on what price the player wants to pay to succeed. The meta is skewed in favor of the player.
The task resolution system in FATE does not exist solely to create tension. It can, of course be used to do so, but it’s not the sole reason for its existence. What the dice are really there to do is to give the players and GM a paintbrush to create a dynamic scene. Task resolution revolves around describing action adding a random effect and using that to see what lengths the character has to go through to create the desired effect. The player must then incorporate the characters Aspects to generate the desired outcome which in turn makes the description of every dramatic action an extension of who the character is and not her statistical makeup.
In FATE the GM uses Compels to drive tension and drama. Complications brought about by Compels are driven by the characters features and are therefore personalized to the characters narrative. This is not to say that task resolution cannot add drama. “Success at cost” situations are also intended to give consequences for heroic feats. The GM is provided with these mechanics that make up a dramatic toolkit. I find this more interesting than depending on the randomness of something like a critical failure or success or depending on finely tuned encounter balance which can go south quickly.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2014 18:41:51 GMT -8
You are probably right. I tried to get into a Fate game at the last con I attended, but that didn't happen. The only other GM in my group has no experience with it (and little interest). Most of the other groups in my area are running DnD of some flavor, but I'll keep an eye out. Maybe my schedule will not suck this time for JackerCon. Something we don't know the details,we may misunderstand it.Just join in and I am sure your query will be solved by yourself.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jan 6, 2014 21:07:43 GMT -8
You are probably right. I tried to get into a Fate game at the last con I attended, but that didn't happen. The only other GM in my group has no experience with it (and little interest). Most of the other groups in my area are running DnD of some flavor, but I'll keep an eye out. Maybe my schedule will not suck this time for JackerCon. Something we don't know the details,we may misunderstand it.Just join in and I am sure your query will be solved by yourself. Open the podbay doors Hal...we've been invaded. And they look so much like us...going to need German Shepherd sniffer dogs...fuck you SKYNET! Stu Venable!!!!!! Then again it might just be Google Translates fault. If you are a real human @adombecky I apologize for my american jingoism.
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maxinstuff
Supporter
Posts: 1,939
Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
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Post by maxinstuff on Jan 6, 2014 23:23:53 GMT -8
Something we don't know the details,we may misunderstand it.Just join in and I am sure your query will be solved by yourself. Open the podbay doors Hal...we've been invaded. And they look so much like us...going to need German Shepherd sniffer dogs...fuck you SKYNET! Stu Venable!!!!!! Then again it might just be Google Translates fault. If you are a real human @adombecky I apologize for my american jingoism. *waits for slippers to arrive*
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