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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2013 22:27:19 GMT -8
So, I abso-fucking-lutely HATE teen monster movies/shows, but I love the apocalypse world engine (in concept, havent gotten to play it yet) and then the other day I saw this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuN9fGLI-88It got me to thinking, how hard would it be to convert Monsterhearts into Super-hearts? It seems like a teen super-hero drama could use a very similar system, but I am not familliar enough with the system to make mods to it...Thoughts from veterans? HyveMynd ?
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 3, 2013 23:04:38 GMT -8
It's definitely a cool idea. Here's my thoughts on it, which are by no means meant to discourage you from trying this.
First of all, Monsterhearts has great social interaction and relationship sub-systems. The game really supports the "teen romance drama" genre, where the characters are all alternately hooking up in various configurations and then plotting petty revenge schemes against each other. The game does that through a player resource called Strings.
Strings represent the emotional power you have over someone. You can spend them to make your actions more effective against the person you have a String on. You can spend them to make their actions less effective. You can spend them to push them in certain directions (by offering them a mechanical reward if they do what you want). You get strings by taking certain actions against other people, such as insulting them or physically harming them. But the most reliable way to gain Strings is by turning someone on.
So Strings let you be a bastard to or manipulate people, but to get those Strings, you have to push their buttons sexually. This is what I mean when I say the game's mechanics really support the "I love you, I hate you" aspect of teen romance drama.
Secondly, Monsterhearts characters are teenagers first and monsters second. Their monstrous nature is intended to be a metaphor for the scary, uncontrollable changes (both internal and external) that kids go through as teenagers. Additionally, each individual type of monster is Monsterhearts (Witch, Vampire, Werewolf, Infernal, etc.) is really a metaphor for a specific kind of negative behaviour. On the surface, the Ghoul is all about uncontrollable hunger for flesh/power/fear. But it's really about being able to control your impulses. The Ghose can turn invisible. But it's really about being that kid who no one notices and how you deal with that.
Each Skin is not really about being a monster. It's about a certain kind of behaviour (magnified to monstrous levels) and how that behavior affects your life.
Lastly, Monsterhearts characters are not good people. The game isn't Vanhellsing Teens, who all team up to go fight evil. It's not even really Buffy, despite the setting being similar. Monsterhearts is more gothic horror, where there is no external monster, because the monster is you. The game really emulates the backstabbing, inter-party conflict stories. The players usually do not get along, and often end up seriously hurting, or even killing each other. Monsterhearts characters are broken people who are trying to dig themselves out of a hole. Again, the mechanics support this. Almost every move in Monsterhearts makes things more complicated in the long run; they don't solve the problem, they merely push it to the background for a bit.
So, if you're telling stories about broken high school superheroes, who alternatively love and then backstab each other, and are always fucking up their own lives, Monsterhearts could work.
If you want to tell a happy story about high school superheroes who work together as a team, defeat the bad guy, and still ace that history test, I would suggest finding another system.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2013 15:22:00 GMT -8
I liked the idea of a character like Rogue or the Melter from Young Masters whose powers destroy anything they touch, plus the way the main character's conflict in the movie link i posted (having a super villain famil) along with some other teen-super tropes could make a good game in the system. The thing I'd most be curious about is, could it handle the fights with superpowers, or would you have to design a whole new subsystem for that.
A lot of things super heroes do is similar to things monsters can do, but I dunno how much flexibility in powers that would give.
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Post by henryhankovitch on Dec 4, 2013 19:36:15 GMT -8
This reminds me of X-Men in general, and of Avengers Academy more specifically.
The original concept for Avengers Academy was that all the kids had been flagged as likely to become future super-villains, due to a combination of powers and social/psychological vulnerability. One kid was assumed to be the daughter of a particular villain, another kid's body constantly gave off toxic gases, one's skin was made of insensate metallic substance, and so on. So the idea was that they were given training and instruction by the good guys, and hopefully groomed away from future suppervillainy.
One problem here is that Monsterhearts characters operate in the midst of lots of normal NPCs. So that wouldn't necessarily translate directly. You might have to consciously include lesser-powered people in your supers-school, or lots of extracurricular time among the normies. Maybe the superkids-school is meant to socialize the kids by placing them in a "normal" school environment while still having them under some some sort of training and supervision regimen.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 4, 2013 20:03:30 GMT -8
The thing I'd most be curious about is, could it handle the fights with superpowers, or would you have to design a whole new subsystem for that. If you're looking for a system that'll support awesome, super-powered fights, with lots of different abilities interacting with each other, then Monsterhearts is probably not the game you're looking for. Monsterhearts has one combat move. Lash Out Physically. It covers any and every instance of one character intentionally trying to physically harm another character. It doesn't matter if that represents them swinging their fists, hitting someone with a baseball bat, pushing someone down the steps, going after them with a kitchen knife, or tearing into them with massive werewolf teeth. One mechanical system to cover every instance of physical violence. Also, Monsterhearts characters are incredibly fragile. They have 4 harm segments, and when you check off that last one, you're dead. 1-harm is fist fighting, scrapes and bruises. 2-harm is a metal baseball bat to the temple, and will have people talking about it. 3-harm is serious fucking damage that will put the target into the hospital and have the cops at your door asking questions (if it gets reported). NPCs don't even have 4 harm segments. They die when it's appropriate. There's no defence roll either, regardless of whether you're a PC or an NOC. If you get cornered by someone with a knife, that first successful Lash Out Physically roll will most likely deal you two harm, messing you up. If you can't somehow get away from this person or stop them from attacking you, that second Lash Out Physically roll will kill you. The focus of Monsterhearts is not intricate combats. The focus of the game is what happens before and after the fight, but the fighting itself is very quick, and very deadly. So again, if the focus of your teen supers game is teenage social interaction, Monsterhearts might work. If the focus of your game is combat, you'll want a different system.
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Post by guitarspider on Dec 5, 2013 2:46:23 GMT -8
You could create more intricate fighting moves of course. Dungeon World has a default melee move, a default ranged combat move and a few others that are class-specific. Of course the "problem" remains that it's always about the fiction with *World games. I suppose it's a bit like trappings in Savage Worlds in that respect. The way you make a combat with the Apocalypse Engine intricate is through fiction, not mechanics. An example for two combats of varying complexity: Two Goblins charge you with reckless abandon, their small scimitars produce a whistling sound as they're cutting wildly through the air. The Goblin fronts his wooden shield and levels his spear as you approach him. He's prancing back and forth a bit in an attempt to match your movement and keep you at a distance. You can see his devious, yellow eyes sparkling just over the crest of the shield. Fantasy example, because my knowledge of supers is close to zero, but I hope you get what I'm driving at. You could navigate that fight with special moves for electricity/speed/physical prowess based heroes, but it's never going to be like HERO.
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Post by joecrak on Dec 5, 2013 4:41:46 GMT -8
A friend of mine is actually working on MutantHearts, though not really mutant specific. But yea, I look forward to when either is complete.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 21:29:56 GMT -8
This reminds me of X-Men in general, and of Avengers Academy more specifically. The original concept for Avengers Academy was that all the kids had been flagged as likely to become future super-villains, due to a combination of powers and social/psychological vulnerability. One kid was assumed to be the daughter of a particular villain, another kid's body constantly gave off toxic gases, one's skin was made of insensate metallic substance, and so on. So the idea was that they were given training and instruction by the good guys, and hopefully groomed away from future suppervillainy. One problem here is that Monsterhearts characters operate in the midst of lots of normal NPCs. So that wouldn't necessarily translate directly. You might have to consciously include lesser-powered people in your supers-school, or lots of extracurricular time among the normies. Maybe the superkids-school is meant to socialize the kids by placing them in a "normal" school environment while still having them under some some sort of training and supervision regimen. good example, I loved avengers academy and now avengers arena....seems like there might have to be more than just a small hack involved to do supers. No matter how much you focus on the social aspect of super kids, there will always be more, and less deadly combat than i think monsterhearts can support...hard to say though. I look forward to hearing about MutantHearts when it is done tho!
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 6, 2013 19:56:43 GMT -8
So I had a chance to watch those Super Academy YouTube shorts, @shoe. I'm not going to say you couldn't do something like that in Monsterhearts, but I think there are other systems that would do that kind of thing better. Fate, Ubiquity, GURPS, yes even Savage Worlds damn it, or even new World of Darkness (depending on how dark a tone the game had).
Basically, I'm not seeing anything in Super Academy that makes me think "Ooh, that is Monsterhearts, just with superpowers instead of supernatural stuff." So again, I'm not saying don't do it, but I think Monsterhearts does something other than what you want this game to be about.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2013 9:34:33 GMT -8
I agree,
I do think that a SuperHearts system does have some merit for a different type of game tho.
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Post by joecrak on Dec 8, 2013 7:30:39 GMT -8
The Reasons many people i know think MutantHearts will work is because the themes of being young and not in full control of your "gift", plus the darkest self move works as well.
But the theme of Mutant hearts is mostly about being young and superpowered and in school, that is where the most story happens, there may be in the field missions, and the drama created from school romances and rivalries spilling over, lashing out.
But in the end its all about being a young teen with more power than he or she should have or has any idea how to fully control.
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Post by D.T. Pints on Dec 8, 2013 9:52:05 GMT -8
One aspect that I did wonder about regarding Monsterhearts that I didn't see come into play (although I did create it when I had the opportunity to give a backstory to the teacher)...and again only got to play one game of Monsterhearts...how I miss you Queen Lulu...
How does the world react to the existence of ALL these monsters ? Are there monster hunters ? Does Fox Mulder show up at some point ? Does Gary Busey show up and try to capture them ? Though that might shift the emphasis to an us vs them story...but the idea of mutants that have really bizarre, dangerous powers would be a very interesting one. Honestly take any of the X-Men and shift the focus to their early years of trying to get their powers under control, place them in a world where they are feared and hated, play up the drama of them blackmailing one another not to be caught and sent off to camps. It could be an awesome story...
The monsterhearts that I participated in could lend itself very well to this in my opinion.
Now to create a DAZZLER skin...
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 8, 2013 17:20:58 GMT -8
You're absolutely right, @joecrack. If the theme of Mutanthearts/Superhearts is being a teenager with more power than you're able to control or understand, then Monsterhearts will work great as a system. I said it before, but a teenager developing mutant/superpowers that they don't understand and can't control is such a fantastic metaphor for puberty that I'm surprised someone hasn't made this hack already. Basically, if you do Jennifer's Body, Ginger Snaps, or (sadly) even Twilight and just replace the "supernatural" aspect with "superpowers", then you're good. Also, and this ties into what D.T. Pints asked, Monsterhearts assumes that the "monster" kids can pass as human. There's a paragraph in the MC's section of the book that says this, though the book also says this doesn't have to be the case. The teen supernatural romance genre seems to usually be "monsters are hidden and the public doesn't know" so that's the default for Monsterhearts. That works out well, as it causes a lot of drama for the players, and prevents them from being monstrous in front of anyone and everyone. There's no reason you couldn't play it with monsters out in the open, like a teenage True Blood though. That means a different source of drama, most likely one that is a metaphor for racism ("normals" vs. "supernaturals") like X-Men. I would stay away from settings where the supers/mutants/monsters were accepted by society though. One of the key themes of Monsterhearts is that the PCs constantly feel unaccepted, alienated, and like outcasts. Acceptance always comes with conditions, and happiness is a zero-sum game (meaning it always comes a someone else's expense). *handwritten note stuffed in Lou-Lou's locker* Dear Lou-Lou,
You and your "family" were a bunch of creepy, in-bred freaks.
But we miss you too.
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Post by joecrak on Dec 9, 2013 20:32:42 GMT -8
I know the main thing for MutantHearts, which should probably be called SuperHearts, is it's all about playing a ten super, whether you have super powers or just amazing ability. Teen romance/angst/drama in the comic like setting.
And from what i recall in what we discussed about the powers...they work like in Dungeon world when you are choosing the description of your character...maybe they might have 1 or 2 moves to choose from.
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