PithyKoan
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Preferred Game Systems: D&D, Savage Worlds
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Post by PithyKoan on Dec 5, 2013 13:27:55 GMT -8
I am looking to GM Shadowrun for the first time in a fairly low-prep (and little notice) session, and in an attempt to hold true to the expectations of the systems for rolling dice (because it's Shadowrun, and rolling dice is what you do), I came up with the following:
4d6 = F (failing, inept) 6d6 = D (below average) 8d6 = C (average) 10d6 = B (above average) 12d6 = A (well above average) 14d6 = A+ (apex of ability) 16d6+ = S (superhuman)
For those of you familiar with the dice pool mechanics inherent in the later editions of Shadowrun (I'm looking at 4th and 5th), would you consider the previous breakdown an approximate abstraction of an entity's (a person, an AI, a goat, and the rest) ability to perform an action within the rules system?
I ask this due to the fact that I'm unfamiliar with the "feel" for the number of successes one would expect from a given dice pool, and I'm looking for a quick if dirty way of attributing stats to an NPC in a ad-lib fashion.
I have only played in a handful of sessions of Shadowrun, including one where I rolled dice once in a 4-hour period as the street samurai of the group (and it was Etiquette, even), so I would appreciate some insight in this regard. I mostly would like to get your opinions on where I could approximate abilities so that I'm not shortchanging my players or the system (well, at least not too much.)
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Dec 5, 2013 13:49:21 GMT -8
Man I am just double posting like a boss lately.
damn phone....
*mumblefuckmumblefuck*
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maxinstuff
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Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
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Post by maxinstuff on Dec 5, 2013 13:49:33 GMT -8
Because most things in SW are opposed rolls.... I would think it has more to do with the difficulty of the tasks at hand.
Sorry I'm not more helpful here, what you have there is a decent guide but SW as a system doesn't use a fixed tarhet number - success thresholds for everything varies.
It will definitely work if you balance the challenges specifically to make the numbers you have posted above true. As the GM this shouldn't be too hard.
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Post by marsuniversity on Dec 5, 2013 14:38:21 GMT -8
When eyeballing dice pools for NPCs I didn't have prep ahead of time in 4th edition, I usually used the following guidelines:
2-3D: Unskilled or a weak area for this character. 6D: About average. 9D: Professionally skilled, a solid threat but not the most dangerous foe. 12D: Big threat, likely to take out a runner if you're not ready for them, omae.
I'd modify these metatype (where appropriate) and add 1-3D if they had augmentations or magical boosts going for them.
Non-metahumans were harder to fit into that curve though.
In 5th edition, the skill limits are higher, so I'd say 21-23 would be near the upper limits of things for a human (or slightly higher for cases where you can employ multiple bonuses from augmentations and gear) as a point of reference, but the above still seems to work for starting runners. I'm not used to pools though, so I couldn't really guess at good benchmarks there though.
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PithyKoan
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 22
Preferred Game Systems: D&D, Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: D&D 5e (Dark Sun)
Currently Running: One-Shots
Favorite Species of Monkey: Pygmy Marmoset
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Post by PithyKoan on Dec 5, 2013 18:10:52 GMT -8
In 5th edition, the skill limits are higher, so I'd say 21-23 would be near the upper limits of things for a human (or slightly higher for cases where you can employ multiple bonuses from augmentations and gear) as a point of reference, but the above still seems to work for starting runners. I'm not used to pools though, so I couldn't really guess at good benchmarks there though. With that high of an upper limit (including augmentations), I wonder if this set of ranges would be more appropriate: 4d6 = F (failing, inept) 7d6 = D (below average) 10d6 = C (average) 13d6 = B (above average) 16d6 = A (well above average) 19d6 = A+ (apex of ability) 20d6+ = S (superhuman) It might just be me not quite grasping the in-game correlation to what the dice are reflecting, but damn that's a handful of dice for what would be considered "average". Then again, augments are really nice and really expensive for good reason, something I've been overlooking since I've only been focusing on the base stats and skills for these dice pools. I think I can reconcile the larger dice pool internally if I remind myself the PCs are going to have a variety of augments available, and that it stands to reason that their opposition would also have a variety of augments at their disposal as well. Any other input on dice pools and expectations would still be appreciated. (I may go bug the White Wolf players and see what they say.)
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Dec 5, 2013 19:07:08 GMT -8
Well the math is that you will average one success for every 3 dice in your pool.
So 12 dice will average 4 successes.
Remember that is an AVERAGE - so you will still fail about half the time.
I think the system defines thresholds along the lines of: easy: 2 (6 dice to succeed on average) moderate: 3 (9 dice to succees on average) hard: 4 (12 dice to succeed on average) very hard: 4+
So - I think what you have above is pretty good.
Again - it is all highly dependant on what the thresholds are for succeeding at the tasks in each category. You wouldn't go far wrong if you took the dice pools above and divided by 3 to get matching thresholds for tasks of that difficulty in your game.
In other words - you can MAKE the above be true.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Dec 5, 2013 19:11:27 GMT -8
In 5th edition, the skill limits are higher, so I'd say 21-23 would be near the upper limits of things for a human (or slightly higher for cases where you can employ multiple bonuses from augmentations and gear) as a point of reference, but the above still seems to work for starting runners. I'm not used to pools though, so I couldn't really guess at good benchmarks there though. Don't forget that this is balanced by inherent limits. You might be able to increase your guns skill to be a dice pool of 20+, but if your physical (I think) limit is only 5 - you aren't going to be able to use those extra successes you roll.
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Post by marsuniversity on Dec 5, 2013 19:12:16 GMT -8
Pithy, do you know if you will be working with new PCs, or an existing group that has already earned a decent amount of Karma? With a new group, I try to keep in mind the attribute and skill starting maximums. Since a character can only have one maxed out non-special attribute and one skill at rating 6 (or two at 5), a starting unaugmented human can have at most 12D (or 14D with special unique snowflake Qualities) where they're using the skill they have much more experience in than any other that also happens to rely on a natural ability that is at the peak of natural ability in them. Rating 12/13 skills are possible, but I wouldn't use a pool beyond about 14-16 dice total against starting PCs, unless they're really optimized stat-wise. I think 6- is a good average to assume for runners. The example NPCs you're likely to see as everyday opposition (on-site security, street police, etc.) have combat skill pools in around this range, with magic and augmentations reserved for lieutenants. The elite responders (professional ratings over 4) are where you see skills in excess of rating 6 and multiple stacking augmentation bonuses for the grunts. Your numbers will probably work fairly well. I'd stick to the low end or average values for typical encounters and save the deep end for the high threat response and hitmen that get sent after the PCs later. The good thing about 4th/5th edition balancing is Edge. You can use it to raise or lower the threat of an encounter on the fly without adjusting stats (if you have players apt to notice and care about that), and the players can burn it to survive encounters where you've overestimated their abilities.
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Post by marsuniversity on Dec 5, 2013 19:27:59 GMT -8
In 5th edition, the skill limits are higher, so I'd say 21-23 would be near the upper limits of things for a human (or slightly higher for cases where you can employ multiple bonuses from augmentations and gear) as a point of reference, but the above still seems to work for starting runners. I'm not used to pools though, so I couldn't really guess at good benchmarks there though. Don't forget that this is balanced by inherent limits. You might be able to increase your guns skill to be a dice pool of 20+, but if your physical (I think) limit is only 5 - you aren't going to be able to use those extra successes you roll. Correct, I definitely should have brought Limits up as well, but I don't have a good handle on those yet. I'm seeing limits falling generally in the 4-7 range, but 3 and 4 show up mostly with wildly inn accurate weapons or where a player is taking one or more dump stats that are dragging the limit calculation down. From the archetype characters, it looks like 5-6 might be a safe number to assume for an NPC that isn't particularly deficient in some applicable Attribute, with 7-8 for those focused towards a specific set of abilities. A shooting roll should use the weapon's Accuracy (Acc) rating as the limit in 5th Ed. (to clarify confusion there if anyone has any), but every other physical action that doesn't rely on gear should use the Physical limit, I believe.
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PithyKoan
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 22
Preferred Game Systems: D&D, Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: D&D 5e (Dark Sun)
Currently Running: One-Shots
Favorite Species of Monkey: Pygmy Marmoset
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Post by PithyKoan on Dec 6, 2013 9:05:37 GMT -8
Well the math is that you will average one success for every 3 dice in your pool. So 12 dice will average 4 successes. Remember that is an AVERAGE - so you will still fail about half the time. I think this was what I was originally looking for; thanks maxinstuff! Taking what you both have reminded me about the system into account (limits and things), my current plan is to follow the 4/7/10/13/16/17+ scale for dice pools, and reconcile it internally by separating the dice pool into different colors to at least give the players the appearance of me knowing what I'm doing. For example, 7d6 will be 3 red dice, 3 black dice, and 1 blue dice, to mimic 3 ability / 3 skill / 1 augment, 13d6 would be 5 red, 5 black, 3 blue, repeated until I want to put the fear of Shadowrun in them and grab 20+ dice for a roll. I'll likely fall to the 7-10 range for most, though. As for maintaining proper limits on rolls, it will likely come down to me comparing with players' stats if a roll goes wildly high or lethal, as that seems fair and challenging to me. Thanks for the help, guys, and I'll let you know how it goes, provided the little notice doesn't jinx us.
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