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TPKs
Nov 18, 2014 6:26:48 GMT -8
Post by lowkeyoh on Nov 18, 2014 6:26:48 GMT -8
Aaron, I got what you meant and agree with what you are saying about it. True Dat! Giants! Imagine a young Paladin on a solo adventure who has just slipped and fallen down a steep embankment, landing prone at the feet of a Frost Giant... That is where the game paused. In 1979. That (my) 1st level Paladin is suspended in the state of about to become Strawberry Jam in my mind. It is technically a TPK that is about to happen. I think about it all the time. ...Now we're back at character gen-our error we do see... Muddyboots Schrödinger's TPK: Until the game is played you exist in a superimposed state of dead and victorious at the same time
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Muddyboots
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 83
Preferred Game Systems: Callofsavagetoon 5ERPS
Currently Playing: Pla-Ying, wazzat?!?
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TPKs
Nov 18, 2014 8:02:34 GMT -8
Post by Muddyboots on Nov 18, 2014 8:02:34 GMT -8
Yeah, that's about right!
Muddyboots
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TPKs
Nov 18, 2014 9:49:59 GMT -8
Post by archmagezemoc on Nov 18, 2014 9:49:59 GMT -8
Aaron, I got what you meant and agree with what you are saying about it. True Dat! Giants! Imagine a young Paladin on a solo adventure who has just slipped and fallen down a steep embankment, landing prone at the feet of a Frost Giant... That is where the game paused. In 1979. That (my) 1st level Paladin is suspended in the state of about to become Strawberry Jam in my mind. It is technically a TPK that is about to happen. I think about it all the time. ...Now we're back at character gen-our error we do see... Muddyboots This is so good, I love it. Double love the fact you were level 1 and ran into an enemy Frost Giant! huehuehuehue
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Muddyboots
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 83
Preferred Game Systems: Callofsavagetoon 5ERPS
Currently Playing: Pla-Ying, wazzat?!?
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TPKs
Nov 18, 2014 10:43:45 GMT -8
Post by Muddyboots on Nov 18, 2014 10:43:45 GMT -8
There! Finally found the BBcode window! Yippie!
Herr Zemoc, It was AD&D (aka 1E) and we always felt that the DM made what they wanted but you had to be smart enough in character to Run AWAY!!!! You could easily die!
As a matter of fact, I see a modern trend of assumption that all encounters are supposed to be balanced weighted and linearly episodic. This works in video game design, but to me is a false limit in world design. Though it is interesting, GTA5 isn't really a real sandbox. I own the 4E core books and read them but never played it, maybe its just an assumption of the version. 3E was headed that way with the whole challenge rating thing. I just saw it as a tool I could use. I know a lot of people put a ton of effort into design balance. It is a must for Con games, but for a long running campaign, I prefer a certain amount of TPK fear as a story motivator. I used to actually put a card up on the players side of the screen that in part (paraphrased) reads: " A lock doesn't mean there is a key, a key doesn't mean there is a lock. Your Encountering it doesn't mean you must kill it, or even can! Talking and running are viable options!" Worrying too much about CR, I get images in my head of Orcs having discussions like "okay,Thalk, you and Gok stay here with Grunk. This party is only CR2!" I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't run adventures without thinking about what you populate it with or how deadly the traps are, just balance the use of balance. Don't give the party a goal, railroad them to it and then put some demigod in their path. Letting characters know that the "troll hills" actually have Giants in them will provide plot points for a good sand box game. "we don't want to go there!" there is an implied "yet!" in there. They need to grow enough to do it. It's good for player agency and also moves story before mechanic.
There are some off the cuff thoughts!
Muddyboots
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TPKs
Nov 18, 2014 11:39:32 GMT -8
Post by archmagezemoc on Nov 18, 2014 11:39:32 GMT -8
Yea, I'm a big fan of combat design and tactics so for actual campaign story-of-the-arc encounters they are balanced/weighted to be difficult, but winnable for the party (5E). But this does not mean I alter the actual game world (fantasy setting I'm working on) to fit the level and abilities of the party.
This so much. I was so excited my party actually ran away from the Fire Giant leader Ragosh, he would have TPKed them if they had stayed. I like to remind my players from time to time that there are things in this world bigger, meaner and angrier than them. For instance they fought 4 Fire Giant scouts in lighter armor, and almost all died. I told them the castle had 30 giants in it, they had a whole Orc tribe at their disposal, so they sent the tribe head on assault at the castle while they tried to sneak into the throne room.
Their almost TPK led to me designing their new biggest threat at the moment, because when they fled the castle they didn't tell anyone, signal a retreat for the losing orcs, or anything. They turned to clouds (Djinnis man. . . ) and flew to the Orc camp, gathered their gear and just left. Well, the artifact they were after was still in the Giant Leaders possession so I had the rival treasure hunters show up a week or so after they left. This was the first part of this story arc so they haven't even met their rivals yet. The rivals free the Orc Chieftain, imbue him with the power of the artifact the PCs came for, and turned him into Life Breaker; an Orc chieftain who watched his entire army massacred due to the PCs, who was then tortured, and now believes the PCs are conmen (the rivals tricked the chieftain) and he believes they are now responsible for all the wicked shitty things that happened to him / his tribe.
The PCs are going to be surprised when it comes up lol. There is always a cost to failure ;D
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TPKs
Nov 19, 2014 7:37:18 GMT -8
Post by kaitoujuliet on Nov 19, 2014 7:37:18 GMT -8
As a matter of fact, I see a modern trend of assumption that all encounters are supposed to be balanced weighted and linearly episodic. I wouldn't say that assumption is "modern" so much as "popular in some circles." It is, as you say, a strong assumption of 4E. Well, if asked on a message board, 4E enthusiasts will insist that there's nothing to prevent a DM from creating a sandbox-style campaign full of challenges that are far too tough for the players, and that's true; but my impression is that it doesn't happen very often in actual 4E play. Honestly, I think the divide is between what I'm going to call "lawful" and "chaotic" storylines. In lawful storylines, the idea is for more or less the same party to progress through the adventure from start to finish, using things that happen early on to build up to the climax. The expectation is that the party might possibly lose a member or two along the way, but not for a TPK necessitating a completely new set of characters. The storylines need not be linear, but this style does support linear design. Chaotic storylines, on the other hand, are more likely to show up in sandbox settings. There may be a linear story thread, but it's not important for the same characters to experience the whole story, so having the original party replaced wholesale doesn't make much difference. Sometimes there isn't a pre-planned story thread at all, just whatever happens when the PCs affect the existing setup. I would say this latter way of creating game stories is just as popular in some circles (particularly those devoted to reducing GM prep time) as the string of appropriate-level encounters is in others.
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Muddyboots
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 83
Preferred Game Systems: Callofsavagetoon 5ERPS
Currently Playing: Pla-Ying, wazzat?!?
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TPKs
Nov 19, 2014 17:22:01 GMT -8
Post by Muddyboots on Nov 19, 2014 17:22:01 GMT -8
Kaitoujuliet, If we were sitting around a living room, you would see me nodding in agreement as I write this. Thanks! I let my personality/old school/experienced bias show. General Order #1 is: gaming is supposed to be fun! If it isn't, you are doing it wrong! I was discussing your observation with an old friend today. I taught him the basics of DMing back in the early eighties. He is someone who is a technical writer and runs very linear and calibrated modular games. He compared his games to mine and it floored me. " Dude, my games are six sessions long. Always. I know exactly what is going to happen, with in certain bounds. Your games go on for years. Mine are like a roller coaster, fast exciting and on rails. Yours are colonizing a new world! Now look at our primary groups, how many of my crew even own a tent? Look at the comfort zones." Me: <busted!> When I played at his table, I had never noticed the "rails" because the games were fun and the rest of his players were having a great time! The table vibe was awesome! Fun was had! Success! Back to TPKs, My friend would never have one unless someone threw wrenches and everybody made bad choices AND channeled Stork! It just wasn't part of the story's entertainment plan. As a Chaotic-Sandboxer, I'm not putting those guides in and I guess a TPK is more likely AND my crew would dig the hell out of it! His crew would be freaked out by it and wouldn't have any joy in it. We design for our crews and know them well. When we mix we play CoC (where everybody KNOWS what will happen...) or Paranoia as a pallet cleanser. I never take pride in a TPK because I never plan them or intend them. If the players decide to go out in a blaze of glory, that's how THEY want to play the scene. I'm as shocked and excited as they are! I know GMs who have done it on purpose. To a one, they had an adversarial relationship with their players and (in my opinion) were a little immature, regardless of age. I don't play with them (Kimi's Rule!) Side Bar ( at the bottom?!?) The HJ crew talks about "wandering damage." The guy who taught me to play AD&D used to run "the world's shortest adventure" it went like this: "You are walking along and you're DEAD!" He would giggle with glee... Muddyboots
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TPKs
Nov 20, 2014 9:40:24 GMT -8
Post by archmagezemoc on Nov 20, 2014 9:40:24 GMT -8
Oh my god guys, last night was an excellent example of when a TPK goes great. In my wednesday sessions I'm a PC, Dnd5E, I play a gnome wizard and front man of the group, because no one with a higher charisma wants to roleplay. We are playing through the Horde of The DragonQueen (lots of fun so far by the way, looooving it) and due to a series of choices we ended up getting ambushed. We had basically in a round about way warned our enemies a few times a long the way, loudly declaring our intentions more than once for the whole caravan to hear. Anyway, the ambush starts with a black dragon doing a glide-by with his acid breath, which instantkilled me (over my complaints and shouts, cus everyone was shouting) and the parties druid, the 2 barely surviving members (ranger and barbarian), horribly wounded, tried to fight off the huge ambush we had triggered (and were no way at all prepared for). As the last player was in his last round of being alive I finally was heard, I'm a gnome wizard, with Alarm cast around him every night, with a raven as lookout; I was waken before the breath weapon by the dragons roar, and my alarm spell; and I have the Alertness feat as well as Darkvision (possibly ever so quickly revealing a dragon in the sky), so I was the only player able to act before we all got melted. So I did what a gnome wizard is wont to do, I cast Misty Step the fuck outa there, and watched my party die! **Que awesome character development as my character drops to his knees in the rain and shakes his fists in the air and cries out to his impotent god while his allies die** Now, Jarrel Boldin The Nightlaugh Jammall Biff, is out for blood and vengeance, and he's done being the pawn of others. Now because of story/character growth he has gone from a silly street magician/ minor thief, to a cynical scheming wizard who will stop at nothing to tear down and destroy the Cult of The Dragon. So much fun! Can't wait for next week.
Everyone in the group had a ridiculously good time playing, and even when we thought ALL of us had died we were a bit shocked; but everyone thought it was an absolutely awesome way to go out. Since my character was the only one to survive the dragon, he gained a level, due to gaining 4x the normal xp for the session since everyone else had died. And on top of the that, now I get to design and scheme my way of taking down the cult my own way, and since the cult assumes I'm dead, as would everyone on the caravan I've got the element of surprise! Next weeks going to be wicked sick, can't wait to cast these wicked tight 4th level wizard spells!!
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Muddyboots
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 83
Preferred Game Systems: Callofsavagetoon 5ERPS
Currently Playing: Pla-Ying, wazzat?!?
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TPKs
Nov 20, 2014 10:26:05 GMT -8
Post by Muddyboots on Nov 20, 2014 10:26:05 GMT -8
That freakin ROCKS! Your fellow players had a great time and died heroically. It sounds like some great RP happened and there is a seed for a new party as well as a serious cause. This is an example of a TPK being good for the game! I do have to point out that since your Gnome DID survive it isn't really a TPK though in game world terms, everybody thinks it is. Ah! The Tragedy!
Muddyboots
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Nov 21, 2014 7:42:29 GMT -8
Post by kaitoujuliet on Nov 21, 2014 7:42:29 GMT -8
If we were sitting around a living room, you would see me nodding in agreement as I write this. Thanks! Glad you found the idea to be useful! So, you run Chaotic stories and your friend runs Lawful stories? I tend to be more of a Lawful story person myself. You make a good point that the attitude of the group has an effect on the DM's storytelling style. I don't think my regular group would really enjoy TPKs either--at least, some of them might be okay with it, but I can think of a couple of players who would likely be seriously upset. (The TPK that kicked off this thread happened with a secondary group.) A demonstration of the DM's ultimate power!
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