thegrimace
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 45
Preferred Game Systems: Anything
Currently Playing: D&D 5.0, Pathfinder, L5R
Currently Running: L5R
Favorite Species of Monkey: Evil
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Post by thegrimace on Feb 23, 2015 17:08:28 GMT -8
All, I realize I could get more "official" answers over on the AEG forums, but it's a bit intense over there, and I'm looking a little more for a response from a smaller and more douchebaggy crowd.
My gaming group is just starting up our first L5R campaign (1 session in) and we're running into a couple questions. Note: unfortunately we're coming from a long history of D&D/Pathfinder play, so we're still trying to break out of some of that mold, and we're probably a little too stuck in the world of minis.
Question the First: How does someone move up into melee combat? Basically there doesn't seem to be much in the way of running or charging rules or anything like that which would allow someone to move relatively fast to get up into melee. This seems especially relevant at low insight ranks, where you're stuck in the move OR act realm of actions.
If you're fighting against other honorable samurai, it's probably not that big of a deal, as both combatants are likely going to just approach each other to within 5' and then the shit gets real. The problem becomes more apparent when you're dealing with honorless peasants, ronin, wako, etc... who might just try to run away, and as it's fairly likely that both combatants only have Water of 2, you'd just be continually chasing each other at equal speed.
Options that were discussed in our game that I'd like some opinions are: 1) Allow you to take regular move actions (only to close with an enemy) while in Full Attack stance, and give +5' with each action taken, ignoring the normal limit on movement. i.e. if you're willing to take the armor TN penalty, you can get an extra +10' of movement while chasing someone down, and they can only do normal movement.
2) Allow the use of a void point to take a simple move action in addition to your normal actions. I've not looked into things enough to see if this is too powerful or makes higher level techniques useless or something.
3) Possibly using an athletics check to run, but with the penalty (for failure) being that you'd trip and fall, or something similar.
Question the Second: Do you (who have played more L5R than I) typically start players at insight rank 1, or higher? I ask because things seem pretty limited (especially in combat) for standard starting characters. Additionally, basically every adventure setup I've seen seems to assume at least rank 2 characters.
Question the Third: On a similar, but differently focused note, I'm thrown off when trying to stat-out the NPCs for my campaign I'm running into odd situations where I flesh out the wizened old sensei that has (in my mind) really high stats, but is barely rank 2 because I'm trying to keep his physical stats relatively low to reflect his elderly status, etc... I guess the question would be: is this common, or am I missing something (i.e. you should be taking more/less emphases, broader skill bases, increase rings and just balance them out with disads like Lame)...
Question the Fourth: This isn't really specific to L5R, but in the world of L5R, how does river-trade work going upstream? With Kobune that can't use their sails unless the wind is going their way, and a seeming lack of beasts of burden to tow vessels from shore, how realistic is it to have just large teams of rowers pulling upstream? If it's really just large pools of rowing peasants, any ideas on how many you'd need for a kobune and/or barge? No one has really been questioning me on this, but it's something bugging me.
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Post by The Northman on Feb 23, 2015 19:41:16 GMT -8
1 - In most situations you're using the normal rolls for movement based on Water, but I would resolve chase situations resolved with athletics (water) rolls. There might be official rules that differ from that, but that's how we handled it.
2 - We've generally always started at 1. I think especially for players new to the game it's important to start near the bottom of the social ladder to enforce the thematic elements of the setting.
3 - Give him more skills. And a higher void if appropriate (which it would be, in the case of a wizened sensei). Or just make him whatever insight rank you think is appropriate. He doesn't forget a technique because he's got a bad knee...you're the boss, after all.
4 - They have oxen - There's even an Ox clan, so they're likely pretty common. Depending on how strong the currents are supposed to be, either have them pulled upstream or have upstream traffic go by wagon.
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Post by joecrak on Feb 24, 2015 14:54:13 GMT -8
In regards to question the fourth: Shugenja can just summon air Kami to blow on the sails, or beseech the water kami to help them move along.
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thegrimace
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 45
Preferred Game Systems: Anything
Currently Playing: D&D 5.0, Pathfinder, L5R
Currently Running: L5R
Favorite Species of Monkey: Evil
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Post by thegrimace on Feb 24, 2015 15:31:07 GMT -8
on question 4: Good point on the Oxen, presumably that's how peasants would do it, or just pole/row slowly upriver.
On Shugenja, I was planning on doing that for at least some of the samurai kobune, but was a little concerned with being too liberal with my use of shugenja, as I thought they were supposed to be pretty rare. That being said, it's not too much of a stretch to say that (for purposes of my campaign) there are a handful of water shugenja who serve primarily as river boat pilot-aids. I already had one booked for the Mantis ship in the area, but I'm liking the idea of a Ronin shugenja hired by the Scorpion in the area, and maybe some "raw talent" types for local pirates who don't have other shugenja powers, but just enough influence/power to work with one particular water or air kami for use in navigation... I like it.
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Post by ericfromnj on Feb 24, 2015 15:52:42 GMT -8
Are there charging rules in l5r?
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Post by The Northman on Feb 24, 2015 17:32:23 GMT -8
A character in Full Attack stance may move an additional 5 feet beyond what is normally allowed with a move action.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 1:23:20 GMT -8
A character in Full Attack stance may move an additional 5 feet beyond what is normally allowed with a move action. Plus if I remember correctly when you're in the full attack stance you must move towards the enemy so the extra movement can't be used to assist in running away.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Feb 25, 2015 11:31:16 GMT -8
Not been on the forums for a while, so sorry for the late reply!
Your questions have been pretty much answered above, but to throw in my tuppence-worth:
On charging: Characters can move up to 5 ft times their Water Ring as a free action. If the character in question is in Full Attack Stance they can move an additional 5ft, so a 1st rank character with a Water of 2 can charge into combat from 15 ft away and still attack as a complex action, which is not too shabby. I would caution against house-ruling it, because there are school techniques that have move actions or bonuses to move actions built in. That said, go for it if you're really not happy with it.
On Void points: Be very careful with changing what you can use Void Points for. Allowing a Void Point to buy a simple action means you're effectively giving any bushi who attacks as a simple action a free extra attack. This circumvents the Extra Attack manoeuvre (5 raises), and if your players come up against a higher ranking enemy, it could be very deadly for them!
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thegrimace
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 45
Preferred Game Systems: Anything
Currently Playing: D&D 5.0, Pathfinder, L5R
Currently Running: L5R
Favorite Species of Monkey: Evil
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Post by thegrimace on Feb 25, 2015 11:52:34 GMT -8
Good comments on the "charging" question, but let me elaborate: Situation: Rank 1 Bushi with Water 2 is 200' from Rank 1 dishonorable bandit with Water 2. The Bushi wants to close and engage, but if both simple take 2 move actions in the same direction, then the samurai can never get closer. Obviously if the Bushi were to advance to Water 3 he'll be able to close faster, but RAW I can't find any other way to close with an unwilling target of equal speed (I know it's a very specific scenario). iirc Full Attack stance allows for exactly what Sir yojimbohawkins describes once you're within ~15' but technically I think it reads as your move action moves an extra 5' but still limits you to the same max movement (40' x Water) per round that you'd be able to get by just using two simple actions, and even then it's a little fuzzy what movement full attack stance allows apart from the free move mentioned above. At this point I'm pretty much set on allowing full attack stance to let you do 2 simple move actions (in the direction of the enemy) for 25' x Water per action which lets you close fast as long as you're willing to take the armor TN penalty. This makes it similar to a run action in other systems. The only thing I'm wondering now is whether this issue was actually intended by the designers to better reflect the lack of honor of someone sprinting around after peasants or somesuch... but I can live with that.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Feb 25, 2015 15:34:10 GMT -8
Good comments on the "charging" question, but let me elaborate: Situation: Rank 1 Bushi with Water 2 is 200' from Rank 1 dishonorable bandit with Water 2. The Bushi wants to close and engage, but if both simple take 2 move actions in the same direction, then the samurai can never get closer. Obviously if the Bushi were to advance to Water 3 he'll be able to close faster, but RAW I can't find any other way to close with an unwilling target of equal speed (I know it's a very specific scenario). iirc Full Attack stance allows for exactly what Sir yojimbohawkins describes once you're within ~15' but technically I think it reads as your move action moves an extra 5' but still limits you to the same max movement (40' x Water) per round that you'd be able to get by just using two simple actions, and even then it's a little fuzzy what movement full attack stance allows apart from the free move mentioned above. At this point I'm pretty much set on allowing full attack stance to let you do 2 simple move actions (in the direction of the enemy) for 25' x Water per action which lets you close fast as long as you're willing to take the armor TN penalty. This makes it similar to a run action in other systems. The only thing I'm wondering now is whether this issue was actually intended by the designers to better reflect the lack of honor of someone sprinting around after peasants or somesuch... but I can live with that. Ah I see what you're getting at. The foot chase isn't resolved by the character's movement rate alone. Once the character gives chase, the Athletics skill comes into play. The reason for that is not only does Athletics have the Running emphasis, but it also gives the player in question the opportunity to call raises to try and close the gap. With regard to the movement question, is it really that important for a character to be able to move that far in a single round? My point about the free action move is that it still allows the character to attack. Using both simple actions to move in Full Attack stance leaves the character dangerously exposed, but I suppose it's their choice.
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grimm
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 28
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Post by grimm on Mar 3, 2015 17:24:06 GMT -8
A couple of thoughts:
As to Question 1: You can have this kind of problem in most RPGs, if the base movement of the characters involved is the same. As the GM, what you want to do is avoid letting this kind of thing go on, because (as you rightly point out) the result is a stalemate.
Instead, decide if the Baddies are going to flee or stand and fight before initiative is rolled. If they're going to stand and fight, let them use the time it takes for the PCs to reach them to get into an advantageous formation, or to get off a couple of pot-shots with arrows. Then, once the PCs have done their run-up, you roll initiative and get things going from a nice close melee proximity.
(This also helps remind the PCs that attacking a group of enemies in a wide-open location, while honourable, isn't a safe strategy. Ambushes might be safer. This adds the practicality vs honour issue to the mix, which is what L5R is all about.)
If the Baddies are going to run, turn it into a skill challenge. What kind of terrain are they escaping across? Do things like acrobatic jumping or long distance running apply? Is there a geographical formation nearby that would create an exciting strategic advantage or allow the heroes to "take a short cut" and get ahead of the bad guys? Don't forget that skills like Athletics can be rolled with different Traits, to produce different kinds of challenges. If the Baddies are locals, they will try to lead the Heroes through the very worst terrain in an effort to lose them.
Finally, for pure chase sequences I sometimes use cumulative rolls to decide if the party can catch up or not. I start the Baddies with a value of distance "ahead" (say 50), and then I have the PCs roll Athletics + (most relevant trait based on terrain, usually Str) for their first "chase" round. I then roll the same thing for the Baddies, and add that to their 50. Then I repeat for a few rounds, so see how the dice fall. If the party can overcome the lead, they 'catch up'. If the gap ever widens to 75, then the party has lost sight of the Baddies, who have 'gotten away'.
Added fun: most samurai take a penalty for doing Athletic things like running in armour. Bandits and peasants don't have armour, giving them an inherent advantage to escaping from armed and armoured samurai. This adds another fun choice - whether or not to go hunting for a mobile group of baddies wearing your armour or not.
Additional Added fun: record each PC separately if they run off separately, or only the lowest roll from the party if they decide to stay together. Feel free to do the same for the Baddies. This can mean that one PC catches up before the others leaving him alone against the enemy - a dangerous situation, but one where great glory can be won. It can also mean that that PC without the Athletics skill can really slow the party down, jeopardizing the success of the mission. This can even allow a straggler Baddie to fall behind and get caught by the heroes alone, where he can be taken prisoner.
Any of these solutions add valuable role-playing opportunities in addition to solving the problem of the "run up".
As to Question 2: I always start my PCs at Rank 1. A Rank 1 character has all the points they need to be decently skilled at their own job, but not enough to be good at a wide variety of things. This is as it should be - in Rokugan, this samurai has been trained since they were very young for a singular purpose, be that as a soldier, a courtier, or a holy person. They shouldn't have a lot of diversity to their skills yet, because their duty to their lord is still closely defined.
In play, this encourages the party to keep each other's strengths in mind. Not having a courtier to deal with social problems is (and should be) a real problem for a party. Likewise, the bushi are responsible for keeping the shugenja and the courtiers safe from harm. (Failure to do so is a shame upon their house and a failure of their duty, meaning that even self-centered Bushi know that not helping the party can result in shame or even sepukku if the lords of those dead men are mad about it.) This goes a long way towards creating party unity, and helps keep the flavour of the setting intact at the start of the campaign.
Also, speaking as someone who has GMed this game a lot, playing past Insight Rank 3 can be a REAL challenge if you want PC continuity. Once everyone starts attacking as a simple action, and the effects of spells begin to get bigger and more powerful, creating combat-related encounters that don't have a high probability of killing PCs in a single round gets hard. Not because you can't balance things, but because the number of damage rolls being applied goes up, and any time that happens in L5R the odds of hitting a crazy-high damage roll also goes way up.
In my opinion, keep the game low-level for as long as possible. Because once the 10k4 attack rolls start hitting the table, bodies are going to start hitting the ground FAST.
As to Question 3: I usually use the Weakness Disadvantage for older NPCs. It allows their Rings and Insight Rank to be very high, while mechanically keeping their physical stats lower. I also sometimes use Weakness for a mental trait, if age has made the NPC forgetful or opinionated. (This can also be a great disadvantage for building lower level characters too.)
While the rule-book does not specify on the matter, I have always house-ruled that you may take multiple instances of the weakness Disadvantage, so long as they never cumulatively lowers any Traits below 1.
As to Question 4: Trade is peasant work, so most of it is done by peasants. I would imagine this includes rowing and Ox-driving. Most of this stuff is left pretty hand-wavey so that GMs can decide how they want to handle it.
(Also, don't forget that Rokugan also has Eta - the slave class that exists even lower than peasants. This may be a reason people don't talk about it - discussing the labours of that class is unseemly. Make the rowers Eta, and the problem solves itself.)
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