jimto
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Post by jimto on Mar 9, 2012 14:00:19 GMT -8
So, having played Muntjack's World of Darkness game (Classic, I think) at Gamicon, I really dug the system and believe I'd like to try my hand running some games with it.
Normally I'd start reading up on a system, buy some books and just dive in. The problem I've run into with WoD is there is about a four metric fucktons of books.
I'm not opposed to buying 4 metric fucktons of books, but if someone on the board could point me in the proper direction of where to start, that would be appreciated. A few notes:
- FWIW, I don't know what particular flavor of WoD my group would like, Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Hunter, Demon etc... If I need to figure out that first, I can do that. - I am not opposed to New or Classic since I basically know zip about either. I'd be interested in hearing opinions on which you think is better. - Does WoD have campaign or scenario books? I usually tend towards running printed modules at first until I can get a decent handle on a system.
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azuretalon
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Post by azuretalon on Mar 9, 2012 15:43:38 GMT -8
Well, you'll find a lot of purists who will tell you oWoD is the way to go. It is the one I cut my teeth on and is still pretty good. That said nWoD is more thought out and fits together better, and obviously availability will be easier.
If you do go with nWoD, the starting point is easy, there is a baseline "World of Darkness" book for playing mortals that is the starting point for all the other games. Once you jump into the individual games, the themes are slightly different.
oWoD, pretty much pick a game that interests your group and run. Either way Wikipedia is a good way to get the jist of the various systems points.
Here is a quick list of the major ones and my thoughts which, mind you, are just my thoughts.
Vampire: The Masquerade - The one that started it all. Fun to play politics, angst or superheros with fangs Werewolf: The Apocalypse - Furry Eco-Terrorist Aboriginal peoples. I really WANTED to like this game but I just don't. Mage: The Ascension - Normal people gifted with a flexible but overly complex magic system. VS ROBOTS!!!! Wraith: The Oblivion - Acclaimed game I couldn't finish reading Changling: the Dreaming - Role play as LARPERs who've lost touch with reality. One of my favorites. Hunter: The Reckoning - Lame angelically powered monster hunters. Mummy: the Pointless - FUCK THIS GAME Demon: The Fallen - GREAT GREAT game about Demons finding their way after escaping Hell. Best played with a group that doesn't play the game as a "be fucking evil" contest.
nWoD Vampire: The Requiem - Not as good as the original but basically the same. Werewolf: The Forsaken - Better than it's predecessor, but that wasn't hard. Didn't improve a ton. Mage: The Awakening - Same as above minus robots. Promethean: The Created - Cool game about going from monster to human instead of the normal other way around. Hunter: The Vigil - More of a tool kit but a BIG improvement Geist: The Sin-Eaters - Groovy game about being someone risen from the grave bonded to a ghost-god-spirit thing. A little high minded and convoluted, but worth a run. Also has a cool 2 axis power system.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 10, 2012 2:37:10 GMT -8
I'm sort of the opposite of azuretalon, meaning that I was introduced to New World of Darkness first through a Vampire: the Requiem game. I still haven't played Old World of Darkness yet, though I have read through several of the books and was planning on running a Vampire: Dark Ages game that never happened (which is oWoD). I don't know the oWoD system mechanics well enough to say that you should choose one over the other though, mind you. But as azuretalon said, it seems that nWoD fits together a bit better and is somewhat more 'standardized'. From what I remember, a success in oWoD was usually 8+ on a d10, but that could change rather frequently based on the action being performed or the situation. nWoD cleaned that up by making successes 8+ on a d10 something like 99.99% of the time regardless of action or situation. So I think that's a bit easier for both the players and the Storyteller to remember, especially if you're just starting out.
Where I really think nWoD really has a leg up on oWoD is in how the books are organized. As azuretalon said, there is a "core" World of Darkness book that explains how the nWoD system works. You can play a WoD game with only this book, though you will be limited to playing mortal characters. It would be like playing a Supernatural TV show campaign with the monsters as the bad guys. There is a pretty decent section on Ghosts in the core book, including stats and mechanics, so you can get started playing a paranormal game right away. There are also a lot of setting agnostic supplemental books that make playing a "basic" WoD game perfectly viable. The core system is pretty flexible, and my group has even used it to play a non-supernatural, hard boiled detective game. Almost all of the "splat" books for nWoD including Vampire the Requiem, Werewolf: the Forsaken, Mage: the Awakening, Promethean: the Created, Geist: the Sin-Eaters, and Changeling: the Lost (my second favorite behind Vampire that azuretalon forgot to mention...) simply layer some new, creature specific rules onto the rules found in the core WoD book. Hunter: the Vigil is a bit different as it is more toolbox-y, as has been mentioned.
azuretalon did a great job of summing up what each game is about. But since he forgot to mention it; Changeling: the Lost - escaped, paranoid abuse victims from the Faery Realms who are no longer fully human and constantly in fear of getting dragged back.
White Wolf publishes "adventure modules" for their games called the Storytelling Adventure System (SAS). They're well written and designed so that they can be used as a one shot game, to start off a campaign, or dropped into an existing one. The ones I have all seem pretty good.
I think you should find out which "line" your group is most interested in playing first though, jimto. If they want a more political game, go Vampire; more combat heavy, go Werewolf; more magic, go Mage; monster hunters, go Hunter (duh); Changeling, Geist, and Promethean are just kind of... weird. I don't really know what category to put them into. Or, since you're running the game for them, you could simply pick the one that interests you the most and play that one. Since every "race" in the WoD setting started out as a mortal (except for Prometheans) it might be a good idea to use only the core book first. Play a few sessions with your players as mortal characters so they get a handle on the system, their characters form a cohesive group, and then turn them into whatever "race" you chose. If you play Werewolf, the PCs were all wolf-blooded or get bitten and go through their first change together; if you play Changeling, they all get abducted and escape around the same time; if you play Geist, you get to kill them (which is awesome) and have them come back. It's a bit of a stretch for some lines (like Vampire), but it'd be a good way to ease your players into the system.
I don't know what your group is like jimto, but combat in nWoD tends to be pretty lethal. There also aren't any CR rating for foes or any way to balance encounters other than simply what makes sense for the fiction. If your group is combat-oriented, they'll probably get their asses handed to them a lot; the system isn't really supposed to be hack & slash with vampires and werewolves. The point of WoD games (IMHO) is to explore the question of "can you retain your humanity now that you're a monster". Players who aren't at least open to exploring that aspect of their character probably won't be interested in WoD. We had a player last a single session in our Vampire game. He got invited by one of the other players (not me or the Storyteller) and built a super-killy fighting machine with very little personality. He also chose to play as a vampire from a clan with obviously inhuman features, which manifested as a skull face. The player tried to play as if that didn't matter, and was constantly confused when the Storyteller kept reminding him that he wouldn't be able to interact with mortals because of how he looked. Rather than playing this "disadvantage" and using it to fuel RPing, he just tried to ignore it. He just wanted to roll dice and kill stuff (which is not what the story was about), and so left after that one session.
Anyway, I realize that's a lot to chew on though hopefully some of it helped. ;D
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 10, 2012 3:23:51 GMT -8
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julien
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Post by julien on Mar 10, 2012 3:27:41 GMT -8
Almost everything was said by azuretalon and hyvemynd. Obviously opinions about these many games may vary. Werewolf has no real interest for azuretalon, but for me, it's one of the best games white wolf published, better in the oWoD than the nWoD. I've said it already, but I just love the tribal aspect it has, as well as the shamanistic way to handle spirits and travel to the spirit world.
And I just hate seeing Vampire played as a superhero game. But that's my personnal interpretation of the game.
I am currently playing in a vampire the requiem game set in ancient egypt (800 BC), and running one of the best ever published campaign for vampire the mascarade : the Giovanni Chronicles, 4 books spanning for 1444 to modern age.
Players start as humans invited to an Italian noble diner party in 1444. I won't say more about it but it's awesome.
Explicit and adult themed, (published part of the blackdog line), but really awesome.
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jimto
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Post by jimto on Mar 10, 2012 6:01:58 GMT -8
Crikey, great answers all around folks, thank you!
I did stop by my FLGS last night and got the new World of Darkness core book. It was only $16 for some reason, so I figured that was a sign I should pick it up. I will give that a read and try to figure out what my group might enjoy the most and move on from there.
More to come...
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azuretalon
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Post by azuretalon on Mar 10, 2012 14:17:51 GMT -8
azuretalon did a great job of summing up what each game is about. But since he forgot to mention it; Changeling: the Lost - escaped, paranoid abuse victims from the Faery Realms who are no longer fully human and constantly in fear of getting dragged back. Derp, Epic Fail on my part. Changling: The Lost is my favorite WoD game period. I ran one of my favorite, if short, campaigns ever that was fun, wild and had a terribly depressing end. As Julien said, it's not terribly "correct" to playing Vampire as superheroes-with-fangs. But it is very possible, evident by how often it's done. And it was pretty fun the few times we did it.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 11, 2012 7:55:16 GMT -8
I did stop by my FLGS last night and got the new World of Darkness core book. Welcome to the World of Darkness system jimto! Congratulations. I'm totally with julien on Vampire being played like a dark-superhero game. You could play it that way, and it could be fun but I think it's kind of missing the point. Especially with the way the Humanity mechanic works. I'm going to come off as a bit of a douchbag here since I'm telling people how to have fun, but Vampire is intended to be a "gothic" horror story; meaning the scariest monster in the story is you. If you try to be a humane vampire you run the risk of losing control when feeding on someone and killing them as a result. Which has the potential to start you spiraling down the Humanity scale if you fail your check. Even if you don't kill someone, how do you rationalize harming people to continue your existence? The farther down the Humanity scale you slide, the more despicable things you can do without having to make a Humanity roll, but the less human you seem to mortals. Limiting your interactions with them and pretty much ensuring you have to act like a monster to survive. I really like how the mechanics supports the fiction here. In our Vampire chronicle, I intentionally made a very humane vampire who was rather young and had never killed anyone. He used his angelic looks and super charisma to feed on night club goers by pretending to sleep with them. I had always used my charm to seduce my victims, but left them alive. In our last session, my character burned all of his blood points to escape a potentially deadly situation, leaving him incredibly hungry and unable to use most of his super charisma powers. When I wake up and feed again, I am practically guaranteed to fail my Frenzy check, killing whomever I feed from and starting my slide down the Humanity scale. But I look like death on a cracker, making it incredibly difficult to seduce someone to feed on them. All my tools have been taken away, I have no idea how I'm going to feed without killing someone, and I'm loving it. Whatever happens, the story is going to be awesome. So if you reduce feeding to a simple dice roll or just kind of wave it away, you lose the great drama potential that can provide. Just my opinion though.
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julien
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Post by julien on Mar 11, 2012 22:26:33 GMT -8
Everyone sees the game in a different way. Everybody's not interrested in playing the moral dilemnas Hyvemynd is describing, but I think it adds depth to the game.
If that's not what you're looking for, that's fine, but I've been suprised more than once by players I thought were far from these things. They enjoyed it a lot, struggling to keep their character's Humanity falling as it gave much power to their beasts...
Most important thing is, I think, theses systems and themes are out there, you can not use them but you'll miss a big part of the game. But if you still have fun, well, go for it.
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jimto
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Post by jimto on Mar 12, 2012 19:32:51 GMT -8
I'm about 90 pages into the WoD corebook. I really like the way it is written. Usually with corebooks when I read parts that deal with math I have to sit there and puzzle it out. With this book, I read it and just seem to get it right away.
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Post by ironnikki on Mar 13, 2012 7:19:24 GMT -8
I've only played nWoD, and I've loved every minute of it. My first game began with all of the players as mortals, and none of us had played before. Our ST allowed us all to choose whichever splat we wanted to take, which sounded really cool, but ended up being a colossal nightmare! Each splat is meant to be a separate game, and has complex settings that are difficult to make play nice with one another. It was certainly a learning experience, but at least it was a ton of fun. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that as far as books go, just get a copy of the core book for the line that you want to play, since you've already got the WoD core. The other books are really nice to have, and make your bookshelf look neat, but then your girlfriend will start complaining about how many books you have, and you don't ever use these, and why do you even... oops, sorry, got off track!
Changeling: the Lost is probably my favorite line. It's got a ton of flavor in the setting and system, and describes pactmaking, oneiromancy, oneiromachy (dreamweaving and dreamfighting!), contracts, and all kinds of other really flavorful stuff, that are easy to introduce gradually to soften the blow of a new system. Characters start out with great roleplaying material that only gets more complex as the game goes on. I could talk for hours about how great this game is, but I'll stop here!
Another game that I really like, but haven't yet had the chance to play, is Promethean. This was one of the least popular splats that WW has put out to date, and for good reason: it's freakin' hard. I don't mean that systems are complicated, I mean that this is a very difficult game to roleplay. I mean, one of the biggest reasons people are attracted to roleplaying is escapism, but in Promethean, you're roleplaying an entity that aspires to be nothing more than human. WoD in general is not a game meant to be played lightheartedly, but this one in particular is a depressing, and possibly very cathartic, game.
You're probably best off trying to figure out what kind of mood you want your game to be in, because each line has a decidedly different mood. As I said, Promethean is kind of depressing and potentially cathartic. Changeling always has an underlying fear that your captors will find you. Vampire is very political. Werewolf is pretty tribal and very intimate with the spirit world. Mage is somewhat variable, but usually has an undercurrent of constant learning and growth. Hunter is typically about hunting, of course, but the reasons behind hunting tend to set the mood. The mood of game has more to do with the ST and players than the system, but certain settings lend themselves better to different moods.
Sorry for the long post. I hope you enjoy your foray into the World of Darkness!
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 13, 2012 19:44:44 GMT -8
I'll chime in here again. I love Changeling: the Lost too, and was the ST for a 3-player Changeling game that lasted about 6 sessions (people's schedules went to hell and the game just kind of faded away). In addition to the heavy feeling of paranoia and dread throughout the game, all the Changeling characters (PCs and NPCs) are essentially abuse or rape victims. They were all mortals who were kidnapped by the Gentry, and taken to Arcadia to be tortured/abused/mistreated/whatever. Because of the inhuman and solipsistic nature the Fae, even mortals who are abducted to be lovers or companions end up having horrific and damaging experiences. As PCs, you finally escaped, but not only are you now half-Fae, but you also carry all those emotional scars from your abuse.
It can be a very empowering game because the characters and player have a chance to rise above that abuse they suffered and not let it consume them. But it can also be very depressing if the players let their characters wallow in their victimhood. You also probably shouldn't play Changeling with some who has actually experienced abuse in real life; it can be a very touchy subject.
All the nWoD lines deal with a central theme and/or tone in this way. You should probably pick one that resonates with your group.
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jimto
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Post by jimto on Apr 2, 2012 7:18:15 GMT -8
Still working on the nWOD corebook. Picked up my first SAS book to run with it (forgetting the name). Also discovered when it comes time to branch out, my group of players would rather be werewolves rather than Vampires or anything else.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Apr 2, 2012 18:52:40 GMT -8
Also discovered when it comes time to branch out, my group of players would rather be werewolves rather than Vampires or anything else. Ah, Werewolf. The killiest of the nWoD games. I've got Werewolf: the Forsaken in dead tree format and a score of PDFs for it, but no one in my group really wants to play it. I really like the themes in that book; how werewolves are creatures of flesh and spirit both, able to travel between the two worlds; the animistic nature of the world where everything has a spirit and what happens in one world is reflected in the other; the political nature of the tribes and packs. It looks like a great setting. I just was never sure how to run it. My interpretation of the game (which could be dead wrong mind you) was not to have the PCs be super death machines who simply ran around killing stuff. I thought it was supposed to be more... cerebral maybe? Or emotional? What I mean is, the central question of the game would be how do you deal with being this inhuman creature in a human world? Can you balance your two halves or will you tip to one side or the other? How do you deal with the spirits that are constantly around you and pissed off at what humans have done? I could never figure out how to balance those aspects of the game when the characters are such awesome killing machines.
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Post by muntjack on Apr 4, 2012 5:02:14 GMT -8
Glad I could inspire your interest in the World of Darkness! I particularly like the old system, but I think overall the new WoD fixed the actual gameplay for the better. I particularly like the fluff involved with the old WoD. I know most people already covered everything about the games, but I wanted to add a few random notes on some of my favorite games.
Mage - I think it's a very difficult system to wrap your head around. There's a lot of potential here, though. I prefer the new system of Mage to the old.
Demon - Without a doubt this is my favorite of the systems. As Azuretalon said, you should be weary about your player types. If they see it as a way to be super evil, the game WILL fall apart. If you can get them into the theme of redemption and really delve into what it means to be a demon possessing a human form, then you have a chance for a really good game.
Wraith - I played one wraith game, and I actually enjoyed the system. I know Azuretalon said he couldn't get through the book, but I think there are some possibilities with this game.
Promethean - If I had the chance to actually run this, I think it would be my favorite of the new WoD system. Then again, I love Shelley's Frankenstein.
You'll get a taste of Demon at the con, JimTo! I plan on using that system specifically for my horror game.
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