muertog
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
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Post by muertog on Mar 14, 2012 18:59:38 GMT -8
Okay, been running a game for a few sessions in Pathfinder. The characters are already level 3 (so I am assuming there is some attachment to their characters), and there was an encounter with some wererats. The Rogue and the Barbarian both got bitten, and failed their accompanying Fort saves. The Rogue was able to figure out what was attacking them via Knowledge checks. As there is going to be a small break (due to scheduling conflicts) I am trying to figure out what options to offer the characters. 1) Wolfsbane for an additional saving throw chance. Considering the rules on Wolfsbane ingestion, that is a very risky shot. I was considering allowing players to use delay/neutralize poison so they could avoid the Con damage, but saw some mention of having to willingly fail the initial save (taking damage) before getting the reroll. paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html (info on Wolfsbane saving throws/damage) 2) Taking the characters as NPCs once symptoms started to arise. I felt this option is mostly a "dick" move, meant to keep players from intentionally getting infected for the stat and ability bumps. 3) Take control of the characters during the 3 nights of the full moon, allowing the players access to the characters at any other time. 4) Allow players to take levels of "wererat" to learn to control the change themselves. www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912aAny other suggestions/thoughts?
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muertog
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
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Post by muertog on Mar 14, 2012 19:04:27 GMT -8
So far the characters only know that they were fighting wererats, not about the possibility of affliction. However, out of game, the rogue's player has stated that his character would not be happy about the affliction once discovered.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2012 20:00:00 GMT -8
Personally I'm doing something similar in my 4e game right now. Two of my players have been infected with the Thrax, which is essentially the Dark Sun equivalent of Vampireism.
What I have done is have my players afflicted by symptoms of the disease that have caused them some problems dealing with NPCs, I have also had them occasionally loose control in combat making them berserk for a round or two and thus a danger to both the enemy and their fellow party members.
At the moment the party is on a side quest trying to find a cure to the disease. On player really wants the cure, another has actually started to see benifts to it and wants to keep his "curse".
Don't worry about so much the mechanics of this, work it into the story and let the players run with it.
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Post by jazzisblues on Mar 15, 2012 6:22:59 GMT -8
As a rule I am VERY careful about taking control of a player character away from the player. This includes things like mind control and domination and such.
As an example last night in my Savage Worlds game a character was strongly influenced by a powerful suggestion. What I told the player was, "It seems like a very good idea to go give him the book." It wasn't a good idea, it would have been a terrible idea and everyone at the table knew it. By doing it that way I gave the player a clear cue that this thing was going on and let her decide how she was going to deal with it. One of the other characters saw her and grabbed her and held her back but that's beside the point. So what was the point? Leave control in the hands of the player if at all possible.
So how does that apply to lycanthropy?
I might start doing things like having the smell of meat trigger a terrible feeling of hunger in the character, but not force them to do anything about it, and then make that feeling increase to the point of physical pain (damage even) as the symptoms progress. I might then move towards physical manifestations of the change etc.
There are lots of ways to suggest and push without taking control of the character.
As always just my 2 krupplenicks on the subject, your mileage may of course vary.
JiB
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azuretalon
Journeyman Douchebag
I poop violence!!!
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Post by azuretalon on Mar 15, 2012 9:25:11 GMT -8
I agree with JiB about the suggesting and pushing, but I also hold a hard line view with such things. Lycanthropy is a curse, not a stat boost, and should be a "bad thing." I agree not to remove control of a character from a player but I also think that a lycanthrope that's shifted is not the character mentally anymore, its just replaced it. It's no different really than if the character had some sort of wasting disease that knocked them unconscious, except that they have to be worried about being killed by their friends instead of their enemies. If there are dangerous ways to remove the curse(wolfsbane), I would make them try it or live with and try to mitigate the consequences of the three nights they are turned.
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Post by jazzisblues on Mar 15, 2012 12:27:46 GMT -8
I agree with JiB about the suggesting and pushing, but I also hold a hard line view with such things. Lycanthropy is a curse, not a stat boost, and should be a "bad thing." I agree not to remove control of a character from a player but I also think that a lycanthrope that's shifted is not the character mentally anymore, its just replaced it. It's no different really than if the character had some sort of wasting disease that knocked them unconscious, except that they have to be worried about being killed by their friends instead of their enemies. If there are dangerous ways to remove the curse(wolfsbane), I would make them try it or live with and try to mitigate the consequences of the three nights they are turned. I agree completely Az. When I push on them I expect the player to play the whole situation not just the fun parts. If they don't, they suffer the consequences which could take a number of different very unpleasant forms. JiB
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 12:06:06 GMT -8
AZ and JiB are basically right on and I love JiB's suggestive storytelling on this aspect. You could take it even father and say that as the triggers take effect they start to see the world differently. I did this in a matter of note passing at my table. I would describe a scene and them hand the afflicted player a note about how their body has an urge to kill/eat/insert violent outburst. They normally were good with it and wanted to get rid of the issue before they killed their friends (mainly just the healer). If they turn full were-creature then let them randomly choose what happens, I am a fan of charts and random situations.
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Post by jazzisblues on Mar 19, 2012 11:40:17 GMT -8
Some things to keep in mind:
How role play invested are the players? If they're interested in the game mechanics and the tactical part instead of the role play then the things I suggest are probably not going to do any good or be meaningful for them. Not making a value judgement here just being honest about the efficacy of my approach to this situation in a game where the tactical combat game trumps the role play.
Does the CHARACTER know or suspect that they have been infected? This would very well color what I told them and what they might suspect or know about their situation.
Cheers,
JiB
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Mar 31, 2012 23:07:43 GMT -8
I have one player actually request/suggest he become a werebear. "That would be AWESOME!" <<< That's my reaction not player's. The thing that agrees so well with my POV in both JiB's & AZ's comments is the lack of barrier between player and character knowledge. Take that shit down to its foundation. PC-player wall is an artificial barrier that takes away from the player suspense of the game; encourages metagaming. (And this speaks to the old chestnut of DM rulings over rules.) My ruling to the player who wants to become a werebear, if he does become a werebear, is to face all the negative loads on his character build long before any positives show up. Taking serious damage for a whole scale metabolic change, in my rulings, could kill some PCs outright in save or die. This would be LONG before any ability bonus or what have you show up on the character's PC sheet (put there by the DM not the player and the open rulebook). Furthermore, in AD&D, where rulings over rules was the rule, controlled lycanthropy takes approximately 3 years of struggle to achieve; and Gary Gygax stressed the disadvantage of playing a race from the Monster Manual. IMO, the DM should follow that sage advice. A lycanthrope is (becoming) a monster in "my rule book" - and I control the monsters. Think Dr. Bruce Banner and The Hulk here. Or recall An American Werewolf in London where the VICTIM was totally unaware of what the werewolf out of the bag was doing but he suffered the after effects of his werewolf form (plus I liked the afterlife visitations by the victims too.) JiB's post for showing (not telling!) the player that change is coming is superb for the early on stages when the DM has only influence on the character/monster, which players can ignore to their PC's peril. The player can try to WRESTLE BACK control from the disease by not acting on urges but suffer mounting penalties, which could include rolls on the old (AD&D) insanity table. But one night, a night of the DM's choosing not by the calendar necessarily, the now monster/character will be the party sentry and start to fight against a "monster" (like a great bear for example ;D ). He may call for help (or not) as I make a check to inform the player who first awakens from the great bear he sees attacking him. The lycanthrope (now more monster than character) will attack the great bear but do damage to his comrades. His comrades will fight the great bear but do damage to the lycanthrope - the only actual threat to the party. Eventually, after one or two minutes/rounds, the lycanthrope Player will get the message. And a new character will be rolled for the PC either dead or fled into the night. And anyone bitten by the monster/character and possibly infected by lycanthropy will have been shown not told. But when a character effectively becomes a monster, and recall the PC alignment change (esp in AD&D 1e where hard and fast were alignments), the monster is mine to direct in any way I see fit: DM suggestion, false information, PC damage or by outright saying "roll for initiative." How "AWESOME" is that Mr. werebear?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 10:49:28 GMT -8
I'm currently playing a kobold werebear named Stigandr in a 3.5e game, using the standard rules for this sort of thing sans the forced alignment change. We're not fond of alignment, so we toss it out. Stigandr has known about his affliction since a young age, so he doesn't go all-out bonkers during the full moon and can attempt to control himself with Control Shape checks. It's been very interesting so far. There's a bit of humor (don't piss off the little kobold) but there's been some great drama as well. Stigandr has some wonderful bonuses in combat in hybrid form - the strength bonus, damage reduction, etc. - but that doesn't apply when he's in his original form. He can't go wandering around in his hybrid form all the time - there's social implications to worry about. Lycanthropes in general aren't well liked; they're seen as monsters. Many of them certainly are, especially the ones who are unaware of their condition. If someone knows that you're a lycanthrope then they're going to want to kill you. This may involve specialist lycanthrope hunters. He's trying to keep his lycanthropy a secret, but it's difficult to do so when in combat. Resisting a forced change is a DC25 skill check, which is high enough that reliably resisting the change is very problematic (especially at low levels). You have a forced change check at 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 of your total HP, which is a lot of opportunities for this to happen. The party already knows of his affliction and got over the whole idea (mostly), but eventually they're going to be in a town or city or some other very public, very populated place, Stigandr is going to get hurt, and there's going to be some consequences. It was a problem once so far but some good bluffing allowed me to convince the townsfolk that it was just my druidic shape changing ability gone a bit awry. I wonder how long I can get away with that... People tend to not like lycanthropes for a variety of reasons. I think it has something to do with the whole losing control of yourself at night and waking up amidst blood and bodies, with parts of those bodies missing. Well, that's what the people whisper around the camp fires at night to scare the children. But, RAW, once you know about your affliction, you don't go bonkers anymore. You retain your sanity. See: www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htmAnyway, word will spread once the general public knows. What inn will accept a group harboring a monster? Lycanthrope hunters may be very interested in a new pelt for the floor. Maybe there's a cult that wants to be infected with lycanthropy on purpose. Do you want to be responsible for what happens next? For where this is going in relation to the original post, I say GO FOR IT. Let the characters become infected. Let them run their characters during the few nights of the full moon, cause problems, do the terrible things monsters do (and reward them for acting appropriately). They'll have to live with the consequences and that can make for a great story. If they're smart, and their characters are well aware of the problem, they might try to cage themselves in while a non-infected party member tries to talk them down out of their bloodlust. It could be a lot of fun. Even more fun if they escape. If they're not totally attached to their characters then perhaps they could make some new ones - and take on their former selves. : > Anyway, my two cents.
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