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Post by ilina on Mar 12, 2016 0:42:29 GMT -8
imagine as a DM, you have an open world, but in your chosen beginning hub, you list the races native to other hubs and skillsets that are more common in other hubs as being rare or exotic in that particular hub. as an Example, lets use Azeroth. your campaign is focused on the Alliance Side of the Joint Campaign Against Garrosh Hellscream, Ex Warchief of the Horde and Traitor, who left Voljin to lead the horde survivors to fight back and join up with King Varian Wrynn.
despite focusing on the Alliance Side, you have 2 humans from Stormwind, one a Warrior and the Other a Rogue a Draenei from Exodar that happens to be a priestess of the Naaru, a Highborn Night Elf Huntress from the Outskirts of Darnassus with a Pet Jaguar, and your fifth player wants to play a Blood Elf Shaman that was Raised by a Tauren in Orgrimmar and was Assigned by Voljin to Assist the Alliance Champions with the power of the Ancestors and an honorary position in the Cenarion Expedition
the Blood Elf Puts a lot of effort into detailing how their young female blood elf Orphan became a Shaman, how she was accepted as an honorary windspeaker in the Cenarion Expedition, and how with her position as an honorary wind speaker, she was Assigned by Warchief Voljin to assist the Alliance heroes with her elemental magic in taking the fight straight to Garrosh
would you honestly ban the Blood Elf for being Too Exotic? would you ban her for being a Shaman; which is a class Blood Elf PCs can't normally become in Azeroth? would you ban her for being an Honorary Windspeaker? or would you accept her as the kind of character that would help the Alliance in taking the fight straight to Garrosh?
if it were me, i would see the Blood Elf Shaman as a character with a large and plentiful bounty of plot to insert. i would accept her purely because she offers large amounts of plot revolving around her and even an NPC, her Tauren Surrogate Father. the character herself isn't really any more powerful than the others, and really, with the large amount of plot she threw, she seemed to be the one most accepting of the spotlight.
if a player found a unique way to bypass a racial class restriction based on background, a way to gain a skillset not normally found in their culture, a way to play a seemingly foreign character working alongside the party as a willing ally, would you really have a problem with it?
i mean, it is fine to say no to the player that wants to play an ogre to make their fighter stronger, but what about the player who used a race that while common in the world, isn't native to your home region, or a member of said race with an exotic skillset? like an Elven Engineer or a halfling Paladin?
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Post by Forresst on Mar 12, 2016 1:00:12 GMT -8
This one comes down to a player-by-player, table-by-table, and game-by-game analysis to me. See, given your particular example, without knowing the player, the table or the game, my gut instinct is absolutely to ban the character. I might not ban a miscellaneous blood elf, depending on the justification for faction switching. I might not ban a miscellaneous shaman. I might not even ban a miscellaneous "honorary windspeaker". But I'd sure as hell look askance at a combination of all three.
Here's why: Assuming this is a level 5 or lower game in a d20 system, or a beginner level game in SW, or a neophyte game in WoD, or whatever, that is WAY TOO MUCH BACKSTORY with WAY TOO MANY EARTH-SHAKING PLOT POINTS to saddle on a character that's supposed to be just starting out, proving themself, making a name for themself, etc.
Like, with your example, there is absolutely no way that Vol'jin of Darkspear is going to take what would be a ridiculously powerful asset to his forces and hand them over to the Alliance, regardless of a joint effort against a common enemy. Someone who is able to overcome the belf arcane addiction, the tauren distrust of blood elves, the crushing difficulty to commune with the primal nature forces and become a shaman, and then somehow gain acceptance as a member of the tauren druidic circle as well? Regardless of fighty fighty, that's a mind you want in your own command tent.
But this might be ok, depending on the context it's in. Let's say I'm running a game of mid to high level for a table of experienced roleplayers who enjoy touching on themes like prejudice, outsiders, social archetypes, political intrigue, religious questioning.... then maybe. If the player isn't just making a giant Mary Sue in order to dominate the plotlight all the time.... maybe.
If this was a game of strangers and I had no idea how a player would handle it nor how the table in general will react? Nope. Nope. No way. Nuh uh. Come back with an actual alliance character.
And that's the other part of this equation. Every gaming group, when sitting around a table playing together, becomes its own little microcosm of game. So what might work for the saturday murdernobles will probably not work so well for the monday night drunken graverobbers. I character like this might be totally fine with other strong, complex characters and players to match. But that same character becomes a giant "fuck you" to a table of new or shy or less confident players real quick.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 12, 2016 1:26:48 GMT -8
Yeah. My eyes glazed over about two sentences into that WoW example. None of it made any sense to me whatsoever.
But I think I got the main gist if things. It sounds like the GM had a certain kind of game in mind which, because of the location, meant that certain races, skills, and professions would be very rare, even for PCs.
I get the sense that this one player wants to be an ultra special snowflake. If I were the GM, I would ask the player to make a more appropriate character.
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Post by ilina on Mar 12, 2016 1:55:35 GMT -8
i guess it was a bad example. and i thought the Cenarion Expedition consisted both of Druids and Shamans. not that said example mary sue elf was both a druid and a shaman, just an elemental shaman with some Pizzazz. no Druidic class features, all Shamanistic ones of the elemental specialization.
but yeah, when you put it like like that, Vol'jin probably wouldn't loan her out, because such a character belongs in the command tent or at least, Training Young Blood Elves to overcome their addiction and embrace primordial nature spirits.
in a low level Campaign, it would instead be a young Blood Elf Shaman apprentice trained by Said honorary windspeaker and who happens to possess a strong ambition to mend the broken bridges between the Alliance and Horde. in other words, the higher level mary sue becomes the teacher.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2016 2:30:56 GMT -8
Background info: I hate special snowflakes. I've had characters try to kill other characters because they were from a race that is overwhelmingly evil or on the opposite side of war. Granted, these were usually not the nicest of characters anyways... But my major motivation was player driven with a veneer of in character logic.
Now that I've established that I'm kinda a dick, let me explain. When a GM proposes a game with a specific setting he or she is setting up a certain agreement between the players. We all agree to exist in X setting and follow the rules of that place. When the GM tells the players this is an alliance game based in world of Warcraft, you are expected to play a character in the alliance. Allowing deviations from this is opening Pandora's box. One blood elf opens the way for someone else to want to play a troll, Orc, undead, etc. Can you deny the other player when it was okay for the first guy and his blood elf?
Now, even if that one character gets into the game you have an issue. Blood elves killed my brother in the battle of noonecares, die horde scum! Is that person wrong? The GM said this was an alliance game, does that player have any less right to hate his factions enemy than the first player has to play a special snowflake? Who is the problem child of the game. I submit to you it is the jackass who broke the agreement to all play alliance (not alliance with caveats). It's no different than failing to address a writing prompt and getting a failing grade because you didn't follow directions.
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 12, 2016 8:44:49 GMT -8
Blood elves killed my brother in the battle of noonecares, die horde scum! Is that person wrong? Yes. Because the overriding, cardinal rule of character creation, is that you should, unless specified otherwise, create a character that will ultimately work together with the party members. Our hypothetical Blood Elf has done so. Now, she may not be happy, being forced to work with the damned, dirty humans who persecuted her people and tried to wipe them out; but the Warchief has ordered her to work with them, so work with them she must.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 12, 2016 10:38:10 GMT -8
Blood elves killed my brother in the battle of noonecares, die horde scum! Is that person wrong? Yes. Because the overriding, cardinal rule of character creation, is that you should, unless specified otherwise, create a character that will ultimately work together with the party members. Our hypothetical Blood Elf has done so. Now, she may not be happy, being forced to work with the damned, dirty humans who persecuted her people and tried to wipe them out; but the Warchief has ordered her to work with them, so work with them she must. Yep, 'cause otherwise you're just setting up Classic Dick Move #23 'that's what my character would do, so there . . . ' Aaron
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 12, 2016 11:39:22 GMT -8
Yup. It's akin to shitting all over a GM's plot hook without providing an alternative. Saying "Nope, I don't want to go in the dungeon." is a dick move. Saying, "Nope, I'd rather open a bar." is player agency at it's best.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Mar 12, 2016 11:58:17 GMT -8
As a wise person once said:
In some games, who's the biggest dick? The "that's what my character would do" guy, or the guy who brings the Nazi character to the Band of Brothers game? I know fuckall about Azaroth, about if I were that GM, I'd have put a bunch of caveats down during character creation. I may have turned the charachter down.
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 12, 2016 15:46:32 GMT -8
Nope. It's remarkably easy to spot. It's the guy who's making a character that's guaranteed to disrupt the game itself.
The bloodelf isn't that character. Now, don't get me wrong, there are other reasons to veto that character. As was mentioned up thread, too much going on for a starting game, with novice characters, for instance. She's not going to blow up the game all on her lonesome. Is she going to create friction? Of course! But that's the source of drama...
Mr. "I gotta murdalize you, it's what my character would do." IS going to blow up the group.
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Post by ilina on Mar 12, 2016 21:27:00 GMT -8
Asylin sees my point. there are other reasons to Veto the Blood Elf Shaman. but it isn't the Blood Elf that is being disruptive, she is simply willing to Cooperate with the Alliance against a common foe as the representative of the other collaborating faction. it would be akin to bringing a mercenary.
no problem with the Alliance Requisitioning help from members of the Horde when fighting bigger foes or Vice Versa. the real problem comes from "i'm gonna kill your character because it is what my character would do." which basically amounts to "its what my character would do" being the source of the douchebaggery. that excuse is used to justify a lot of dick moves, like stealing from party members, charging for healing beyond the cost of material components, buying "flotation device implants" on a small framed and childlike character when the player blatantly requested that their character's childlike form not be desecrated due to something important the player sees in the character.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2016 23:34:02 GMT -8
would you honestly ban the Blood Elf for being Too Exotic? would you ban her for being a Shaman; which is a class Blood Elf PCs can't normally become in Azeroth? would you ban her for being an Honorary Windspeaker? or would you accept her as the kind of character that would help the Alliance in taking the fight straight to Garrosh? It's not banning because it was never allowed in the first place. Don't try to make the GM into the bad guy here. The player is clearly being unreasonable by trying to introduce a character who doesn't fit into the established setting. You might be able to convince the GM that your special character could make sense within the setting, but it's going to be a matter of probabilities. I could buy into a Blood Elf working with the Alliance. I might buy into a Blood Elf being a Shaman, as a unique exception due to whatever personal traits that work out that way. The Honorary Windspeaker thing doesn't seem too unlikely. The chance of all three things being true is too low for me to suspend disbelief that far.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Mar 13, 2016 0:21:09 GMT -8
I'd likely ban the character for being an orphan I've met too many "I have no family" types in my 36 or whatever years of roleplaying.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 13, 2016 0:29:50 GMT -8
I'd likely ban the character for being an orphan I've met too many "I have no family" types in my 36 or whatever years of roleplaying. Maybe because 'orphan' is such a common trope in the genre? - from Dickins to Tolkien to Lieber to Moorcock to Martin Aaron
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Post by ilina on Mar 13, 2016 1:36:57 GMT -8
I'd likely ban the character for being an orphan I've met too many "I have no family" types in my 36 or whatever years of roleplaying. Maybe because 'orphan' is such a common trope in the genre - from Dickins to Tolkien to Lieber to Moorcock to Martin Aaron Said Blood Elf's Biological Blood Elf Parents might be dead. but what if her Tauren Adopted Father that Raised her was still alive and still a prominent background NPC? an Orphan can still have siblings and can even have Adopted Parents or even a Parental figurehead they possess attachments to. most Orphans even still have aunts, uncles or cousins. just because you are an Orphan doesn't mean you don't have family, whether biological or surrogate. said Blood Elf Shaman could be even part of a Trio of Blood Elf Sisters that were adopted and became Shamans. i even played a Grey Elf Orphan that was Adopted by a Good Aligned Silver Scale Kobold and raised her as if she was his own in a primarily human run village.
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