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Post by Probie Tim on May 24, 2017 11:37:46 GMT -8
So this came up on one of my feeds, probably because Dungeon World is OSR styled. But evidently there is a Dungeon World 'zine called "Session Zero" being written by a guy named Brian Holland that is on DriveThruRPG for the low price of PayWhatYouWant per issue. Looks like two issues are up so far. www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/11364/Brian-HollandEnjoy!
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 24, 2017 17:28:44 GMT -8
Yes! Yes! Come over to the indie side! *cackles*
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Post by Probie Tim on May 24, 2017 19:11:43 GMT -8
Yes! Yes! Come over to the indie side! *cackles* Oh, don't get me wrong, I just saw it pop up and thought it might be of interest to my Happy Jacks PbtA cousins. I didn't... you know... buy them or anything. Could you imagine that? Me... buying PbtA stuff*? I just laughed so hard I think I herniated my... everything. * aside of Spirit of 77, Bedlam Hall, and Dungeon World. Yes, I actually bought Dungeon World.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 24, 2017 19:38:39 GMT -8
* aside of Spirit of 77, Bedlam Hall, and Dungeon World. Yes, I actually bought Dungeon World. Not to your tastes cause the GM doesn't roll dice?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 23:18:35 GMT -8
* aside of Spirit of 77, Bedlam Hall, and Dungeon World. Yes, I actually bought Dungeon World. Not to your tastes cause the GM doesn't roll dice? In dungeon world the GM gets to roll damage dice, and lets be honest, those are the best GM rolls anyways. >.>
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Post by Probie Tim on May 25, 2017 5:28:17 GMT -8
Not to your tastes cause the GM doesn't roll dice? There's actually a few reasons, if you're legitimately asking. Primarily, I am 100% turned off by the near constant pushing of PbtA games as the one-true-way, end-all-be-all system for every RPG scenario. Secondarily, yes, there's the whole "GMs don't roll dice" thing; when I'm GMing a game, I want to make my attack roll and know if it succeeds - not if the PCs avoided the attack - and by how much, because I use that information as part of my GMing style. Finally, remember how you said that everything clicked for you with one of the PbtA games? That's how I am with the old-school stuff; PbtA just doesn't "click" for me. All that said, I'm only talking about when I GM. I'd totally play a PbtA game. And because I know that other people enjoy PbtA, if I see things like this 'zine which no one else has mentioned on the forums, I'll happily post it for your benefit.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 25, 2017 17:21:14 GMT -8
There's actually a few reasons, if you're legitimately asking. Primarily, I am 100% turned off by the near constant pushing of PbtA games as the one-true-way, end-all-be-all system for every RPG scenario. I totally get that. I get grumpy as hell when people keep pushing something at me and claiming it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Add in some one-true-wayism and a healthy dose of end-all-be-all, and I am absolutely not going to touch whatever it is you're pushing, purely for spite. Secondarily, yes, there's the whole "GMs don't roll dice" thing; when I'm GMing a game, I want to make my attack roll and know if it succeeds - not if the PCs avoided the attack - and by how much, because I use that information as part of my GMing style. I'm curious about this if you'd be willing to expand. I'm not really seeing a difference between how much an NPC succeeded by vs how much a PC failed by. Finally, remember how you said that everything clicked for you with one of the PbtA games? That's how I am with the old-school stuff; PbtA just doesn't "click" for me. I can't, and am certainly not, arguing with that. As much as I say people should branch out and try other systems, I cleave pretty hard to PbtA stuff. I am not taking my own advice there. Plus, it seems pretty silly to keep banging your head against something when it A) doesn't click and B) doesn't seem like something you'd enjoy. All that said, I'm only talking about when I GM. I'd totally play a PbtA game. And because I know that other people enjoy PbtA, if I see things like this 'zine which no one else has mentioned on the forums, I'll happily post it for your benefit. I'm still bummed that Monsterhearts PbP game petered out. Your vampire Tomas seemed like an awesome character, and you brought a lot of cool background stuff into the game for me to lay with. Oh well. Thanks for pointing out the Session Zero 'zine to everyone. Have you seen Plundergrounds? It too is a Dungeon World 'zine. The first issue is free (I think), but the author, Ray Otus has a Patreon. $2 gets you a new 24-page issue every other month.
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Post by Probie Tim on May 26, 2017 20:35:01 GMT -8
Secondarily, yes, there's the whole "GMs don't roll dice" thing; when I'm GMing a game, I want to make my attack roll and know if it succeeds - not if the PCs avoided the attack - and by how much, because I use that information as part of my GMing style. I'm curious about this if you'd be willing to expand. I'm not really seeing a difference between how much an NPC succeeded by vs how much a PC failed by. No problem! So, while role-playing is first and foremost what draws me to RPGs, I also quite enjoy the "game" aspects of my role-playing games. I want to feel like I'm actively partaking in the "game" aspects. While rules-mechanically there is very little difference between how much an NPC succeed by and how much a PC failed by, with the former I'm actively physically partaking in the "game" aspects by rolling the dice. I get to heft my dice, I get to watch it bounce around the table, and I get to experience that rush which comes with a good (or bad!) roll. With the latter, I'm not actively physically partaking in the "game" parts of the RPG. Instead, I'm reacting to someone else actively physically partaking in those parts. Make sense?
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 26, 2017 21:09:46 GMT -8
No problem! So, while role-playing is first and foremost what draws me to RPGs, I also quite enjoy the "game" aspects of my role-playing games. I want to feel like I'm actively partaking in the "game" aspects. While rules-mechanically there is very little difference between how much an NPC succeed by and how much a PC failed by, with the former I'm actively physically partaking in the "game" aspects by rolling the dice. I get to heft my dice, I get to watch it bounce around the table, and I get to experience that rush which comes with a good (or bad!) roll. With the latter, I'm not actively physically partaking in the "game" parts of the RPG. Instead, I'm reacting to someone else actively physically partaking in those parts. Make sense? I got you. In systems where the GM rolls dice to check NPC success, you get to participate in the game part of roleplaying games by rolling said dice. In systems where the GM narrates NPC action and players roll dice to avoid nasty effects, you don't get to participate in the aforementioned game part. I've never considered that, but can see how it makes games less fun for people who enjoy that part.
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Post by RudeAlert on May 28, 2017 19:31:10 GMT -8
This issue is also something that turns me off. It's also one of the many issues I had with Numenera, but that's a whole other story. If I'm not rolling dice along with everybody else I kinda feel like I'm being left out of the game. Just like Tim said, I care most about the roleplaying, but I also care about the gaming.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2017 22:22:16 GMT -8
This issue is also something that turns me off. It's also one of the many issues I had with Numenera, but that's a whole other story. If I'm not rolling dice along with everybody else I kinda feel like I'm being left out of the game. Just like Tim said, I care most about the roleplaying, but I also care about the gaming. PbtA is all about moving things forward. The situation should evolve after every move. Knowing this, consider a standard dice rolling scheme of pass or fail. Any time two characters (npc or pc) come into conflict they will likely end up in some kind of opposed roll. In said opposed roll it can only go 4 ways:
| Pass | Fail | Pass | Pass/Pass | Pass/Fail | Fail | Fail/Pass | Fail/Fail |
This models a situation where each side is rolling against a static number. I am trying to make an attack roll, he is trying to make a defend roll. In this situation, if we both pass nothing happens. If we both fail, nothing happens. The only way I succeed is if I pass AND he fails. So 25% of possible options is where something "happens". Now we can change the situation to one where we both are rolling against each other instead of against a static number. In that case we either have a 50% chance of something "happening" or a 100% chance (which is what most one roll resolutions look like). In PbtA we have three outcomes: Miss, Weak Hit, Strong Hit. All three of them advance the situation. Never do you have a turn where your rolled and nothing happened as a result. So not only are we getting as great or greater depth than most traditional systems (even though we lack a 4th option, we see our outcomes come into play much more often than critical success/failure), but we were able to accomplish it while removing steps from the rolling process, thus speeding up play (and reducing cognitive load on the GM). While I know the complaint never seems to be around how to model difficulty (even though that is the major weakness of PbtA in my eyes), there are ways to address this. Spirit of '77 has rolling with something less or more, where you roll 3d6 and use the higher or lower two dice to generate your result. Overall I find there are significant benefits to PbtA's system, and removing GM rolling is part of how that is accomplished. I say part because not all PbtA games remove all GM rolling. Dungeon World maintains rolling for damage on the GM side of things. I'd council you to give the game an honest try from the MC side before you decide you hate it because it doesn't let you roll dice. You might be surprised and find it isn't as important as you think. I can't help but see the same thing happening here as happened with FFG's narrative dice games. Pretty much every grognard I knew shit their pants over custom dice and how 'stupid' it was. It all proved to be baseless drivel from people who were too stuck in their ways to try something new. Dice aren't even the only show in town when it comes to randomizer. You can also used cards (like savage worlds does for initiative). Just because dice are in most rpg's doesn't mean that all rpg's = dice for everyone.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 28, 2017 23:10:59 GMT -8
Both Probie Tim and RudeAlert have said that they like rolling dice when GMing games. Not rolling dice makes the whole experience less enjoyable for them. I seriously doubt that anything you say is going to convince them to "come around" @stevensw. To provide an analogy, I hate natto. Those disgusting fermented beans look like little nuggets of rot cover in mucus, and smell just as bad. I tried a single bean once and nearly vomited. But my wife enjoys it and it makes an appearance at our table fairly often. She knows I hate the stuff and always asks if it's OK for her to eat it. I know she likes it, and always respond by saying it's fine and that she doesn't need my permission. No matter how many articles I read telling me that natto is good for you, I simply will not eat it. I don't enjoy it, and it will not pass my lips. I have to (subtly) scoot my chair as far away as possible whenever my wife opens up the styrofoam container just so I don't smell the stuff. You are extolling the virtues of natto to two people who do not like it, @stevensw. While you might think it's great, nothing you can say will get them to eat it. DIfferent people have different tastes and enjoy different things.
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Post by RudeAlert on May 29, 2017 12:52:22 GMT -8
Different people have different tastes and enjoy different things. And there's the part that he'll never be able to accept.
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Post by Probie Tim on May 29, 2017 16:51:10 GMT -8
I'd council you to give the game an honest try from the MC side before you decide you hate it because it doesn't let you roll dice. You might be surprised and find it isn't as important as you think. My brother does not like melted cheese. It grosses him out, and has done so for pretty much his entire life. He knows this, and so doesn't order food with melted cheese. Yet every once in a while someone responds to this particular food peculiarity with shock and alarm. "What about the melted cheese on pizza?" "No." "Lasagna?" "Nope." "Enchiladas?" "*sigh* Uh uh." "Man, you know, you have to try my uncle's enchiladas. He uses Gruyere and it melts so smoothly that you can't even taste it. You should totally try them, you'll love them." "...no, I don't like melted cheese. At all. In any situation." Pretty much every grognard I knew shit their pants over custom dice and how 'stupid' it was. It all proved to be baseless drivel from people who were too stuck in their ways to try something new. This is what bugs me about the "PbtA is the ultimate answer for every RPG question" crowd. I've been playing and running RPGs for 35 years. I ran an RPG publishing company for 5 years. My lack of desire to run PbtA couldn't possibly be based out of 35 years of experience figuring out what works and what doesn't work for me as a GM; no, no, it's the same thing as when grognards shit their pants over a new dice mechanic. There's no way that, having played PbtA a couple of times and having witnessed the role of the GM, I could have enough experience with RPGs to know that it's not going to work for me as a GM; no, no, it's just like those other people who were too stuck in their ways to change. Every single time I read something like the quotes above about PbtA, it makes me understand my brother more and more when he tells me that people who think they know what melted cheese dish he'd really like better than he does piss him off.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 29, 2017 17:28:00 GMT -8
Every single time I read something like the quotes above about PbtA, it makes me understand my brother more and more when he tells me that people who think they know what melted cheese dish he'd really like better than he does piss him off. Funnily enough, it took me a long time to like cheese. Similar to your brother's experience, some people were aghast and tried to think of dishes including is that I'd like. Naturally I dug in my heels and refused to try them. I knew what I liked and what I didn't, and people pushing something I didn't like on me because "I just hadn't tried the right one" was annoying as fuck. I love PbtA games. I think they do a lot of cool things, and I want everyone to have a chance to try them out. But beating people over the head with a PbtA book going "You're wrong! You're wrong! You should like this thing!" is a shitty thing to do.
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