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Post by SavageCheerleader on Jun 29, 2017 12:27:23 GMT -8
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Post by uncommonman on Jun 29, 2017 15:23:29 GMT -8
Interesting but complicated, it's a big change when building a character.
I don't like it, it seems like strange that it on average would be faster to shoot a bow than hit someone with your fists.
Example:
Archer and monk are side by side and mage is 10 meters/yards away.
Archer plans to shoot mage, monk wants to hit archer and mage wants to zapp archer.
I think the monk's attack would be come before the archer's.
The mage can be faster than both (cantrip or fast spell) or the slowest depending on what kikd of spell he used.
With this kind of initiative my example would be counter intuitive and mages would be at a huge disadvantage most of the time.
If you want to change the initiative rules you need to change everything else to not make the game un-balanced.
And isn't bonus actions supposed to be fast, with this system they are one of the slowest actions in a round.
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Post by SavageCheerleader on Jun 29, 2017 16:01:03 GMT -8
Interesting but complicated, it's a big change when building a character. I don't like it, it seems like strange that it on average would be faster to shoot a bow than hit someone with your fists. Example: Archer and monk are side by side and mage is 10 meters/yards away. Archer plans to shoot mage, monk wants to hit archer and mage wants to zapp archer. I think the monk's attack would be come before the archer's. The mage can be faster than both (cantrip or fast spell) or the slowest depending on what kikd of spell he used. With this kind of initiative my example would be counter intuitive and mages would be at a huge disadvantage most of the time. If you want to change the initiative rules you need to change everything else to not make the game un-balanced. And isn't bonus actions supposed to be fast, with this system they are one of the slowest actions in a round. My first thought was also, "damn, that seems complicated". Mearls is denying this, claiming it to be faster or as fast as normal initiative. Not sure I buy that. He openly states (and stated prior to release) that he finds the initiative system to be boring (he's not wrong) and wanted to change it. The stacking of moves increasing your count is head scratching; what's the point of bonus actions? Very odd stuff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 21:43:26 GMT -8
I believe the concept behind this is stolen from another game. I want to say Burning Wheel, but that may be wrong. At any rate, the idea behind it is pretty simple. Ranged goes first. It takes longer to shoot a bow than swing a sword, but arrows fly faster than people run. Since movement and everything else happens at once in a turn, this helps simulate the advantage of ranged weapons being able to shoot before you can run up to them. There is the whole 21 foot rule, but that would get into way too much minutiae for D&D.
Overall it does make the game more interesting, at least at low levels. Because people are either ok or not in D&D, once HP levels get high enough that everyone can take a few rounds of hits, than initiative nearly doesn't matter. But when a single crit could remove someone from a fight, choosing to throw a dagger and stand still vs move up and double strike makes a difference. You go before the other guy and WHAM! He's out of the fight. If you chose to try for that bonus attack second swing + move, well that might be you instead.
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Post by ilina on Jul 12, 2017 11:51:32 GMT -8
the reason for 1d20+dexterity bonus, is because it keeps the game simple and fast. at least allow agile players to subtract their dexterity bonus from the total if you want to use this complicated system. so that dexterity based builds don't feel robbed that their primary benefit for going with dexterity is gone. in fact, why not include weapon speeds and reach while you complicate this? a dagger is clearly a lot faster than a longsword.
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tyler
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 226
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Post by tyler on Jul 12, 2017 12:47:43 GMT -8
Mearls mentioned that he was considering using the weapon's damage die as the weapon initiative.
It certainly makes initiative more complex, but it encourages party collaboration, while reducing the "sit around and wait for your turn" aspect a bit.
I agree that it seems overly complicated for a system that's all about making mechanics as simple as possible. But I imagine after a few sessions, it becomes second nature and is just as fast, and more engaging than D20+dex.
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tyler
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 226
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Post by tyler on Jul 12, 2017 13:07:10 GMT -8
Discussion in the reddit thread seems to be that it DOES speed up combat, because people aren't making their action decisions on their turn. Everyone plans at the start of the turn, rolls initiative dice, then plays out their already chosen actions (with some house rules for minor adjustments based on the actions that precede theirs).
Many of the people who have actually put it into use have said that they thought the same thing, that it would slow down combat, and were surprised at the results.
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Jul 12, 2017 13:23:06 GMT -8
It's interesting and I'll try it. I'm more of a fan of the initiative system where you roll against the toughest monster in the battle. You beat their roll you go before them, you don't beat their roll you go after them. Then players decide who goes when during their "turn" to act. Adds a bit of desperation and prioritizing when the toughest guy in the fight keeps going before you and wallops your face. But I can see how this new Initiative system tries to simplify action economy with the party in a similar manner.
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tyler
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 226
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Post by tyler on Jul 12, 2017 13:37:00 GMT -8
It's interesting and I'll try it. I'm more of a fan of the initiative system where you roll against the toughest monster in the battle. You beat their roll you go before them, you don't beat their roll you go after them. Then players decide who goes when during their "turn" to act. Adds a bit of desperation and prioritizing when the toughest guy in the fight keeps going before you and wallops your face. But I can see how this new Initiative system tries to simplify action economy with the party in a similar manner. Good guys vs. Bad guys. I like it.
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Post by uncommonman on Jul 12, 2017 13:37:05 GMT -8
On a side note I like the pre determined action system where you choose your actions based on speed.
The slowest actor decide first and the quickest has the advantage to know everyone's plans.
It probably won't work in D&D unless you only have to declare your main action and your movement.
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nanoboy
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 142
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Post by nanoboy on Jul 12, 2017 20:10:49 GMT -8
Wizards released an Unearthed Arcana version here. If you have highly involved players, this system might be pretty fun.
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mxreese
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 2
Preferred Game Systems: D&D 5e, Vampire 20th, Savage Worlds, Dread, Hackmaster 4e
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Post by mxreese on Jul 31, 2017 19:20:17 GMT -8
I appreciate what he's going for here, because having played a fair amount of Hackmaster 4th edition, I can say from experience that rolling initiative each round and having that modified by the speed of your declared actions for the round can not only make combat move smoother and quicker, but keep players from spacing out when it's not their turn to act.
I'd rather have a system where you roll one die (d10 if I had my druthers) and add/subtract a few small modifiers than roll a few dice, but I like the concept.
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mrmanowar
Apprentice Douchebag
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Preferred Game Systems: Ones that I own.
Currently Playing: AS&SoH, AD&D various editions and Manowar CD's
Currently Running: D&D 5E, AS&SoH (Started!)
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Post by mrmanowar on Aug 11, 2017 21:12:12 GMT -8
I got a chance to play with Mike Mearls this past Gary Con with this specific initiative system in play for the first time. It was a blast. It kept things moving and really varied up the initiative order and combats were NOT slow. Mike is an excellent DM and I really liked this gameplay style. 2017 will be awesome for me. First gaming with Mike Mearls at Gary Con, next gaming with Chris Perkins at Gamehole. Can't wait.
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bobcatt
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Patron
An infinite number of monkeys can't be wrong...
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Preferred Game Systems: AD&D 1e, 2e, 5e, Top Secret/S.I., Classic Traveller
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Post by bobcatt on Oct 6, 2017 14:50:36 GMT -8
How does this work when you have more than one attack per round?
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Post by ilina on Oct 6, 2017 17:45:21 GMT -8
it apparently unfairly punishes melee physical attackers like fighters, because they have an initiative penalty for each of their attacks, and also screws over dual wielders, monks, and rogues, who depend on their bonus action in favor of casters who only have to roll a single d12, a fighter is probably rolling a bunch of d8's, plus it penalizes every melee build because they all have to move. this makes interrupting enemy casters next to impossible, because if the archer has multiple shots per round, they still can't keep up with the caster that only needs to roll a single die for most actions.
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