fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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HJRP 19-19
Jul 30, 2017 23:45:12 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by fredrix on Jul 30, 2017 23:45:12 GMT -8
Still listening, but while I sip a coffee, a quick thought on sidebars. I think my personal preference is for privacy, the GM taking people away from the table.
But I've noticed that our habits have changed and I put it down to this: my preferences were formed back in the day - gaming every weeknight and/or most of Saturday. Now even my regular Wednesday night is just 2-2.5 hours and our all day Sat sessions so few and far between, that we don't have TIME enough to leave the table.
But when it happens, it's fun. Last L5R the GM took a player away for a sidebar, and he came back and told us exactly what had happened. That test of honour and loyalty would not have had the same value, if we've eve dropped at the table. That said, as players we know that same character practices Maho, but our characters don't.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 0:01:18 GMT -8
I have to side with Jason on the whole secrets issue. My general rule of thumb is, "Don't do anything you wouldn't be okay with everyone seeing." I'm actually fine with sidebars if everyone is playing with that mantra. I'm also upfront about my hatred of thieves (people stealing from the party). The only way that kind of behavior is tolerable is if the player asks permission from the other players first. Otherwise we have a problem out of character. The type of problem where I ask for you to be asked to leave the table and not return.
"I'm just playing my character", is never an acceptable excuse. If that flies at the table then all I can say is my next character will be a murderer. "Just playing my character, sorry, not sorry."
In general though I think secrets in the open are the most fun. As in all cases, I try to make characters that will work in the game as proposed. That means designing characters together as well. If one character is a double agent, perhaps my character is blinded by their love of said person and could never believe such aweful slander. Of course, they might make it awkward for them to take secret meetings when they show up unannounced with a bouquet of flowers right as said person is trying to walk out the door to reach said meeting. Creating a Sherlock Holmes type that will figure it out instantly is just being a buzzkill.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jul 31, 2017 7:00:11 GMT -8
I think I'm generally in agreement with the gang on player/character secrets. I don't necessarily have a problem with secrets per se, provided everyone at the table is in agreement on how to deal with that sort of thing during the session.
I'm also generally happy to engage with players individually outside of game sessions about their characters, and what they share with the other players about that interaction is up to them. Personally, I wouldn't break that trust, although I would encourage a player to share something if it was appropriate.
In a rather timely happenstance, I recently reached out to a player via email about where his character stands on betraying the party. It's a FFG Star Wars game; I took it over from one of out group to give him the chance to play the system and inherited a group of all Force and Destiny characters. Only one of the players was willing to provide a back-story, so I've used that as a backdrop for the campaign, and as the characters have been breaking out lightsabres and force-powers all the time, I've had the Inquisition on their tail in the background. I've dropped a number of large and unsubtle hints about what's coming while they've been helping the Rebellion, and we've got to the point where the back-story character has been getting numerous messages (intercepted by Alliance Intelligence and relayed on) that the family manufacturing business (which makes Imperial military goods) has been suffering because of that character's actions, to the point of the character's father ordering him to stop his foolish 'pilgrimage for mystical mumbo-jumbo' and come home, as his mother has left his father, his younger brother has joined the Imperial military to try and boost the family reputation and his younger sister has become a student radical. The character in question has been trying fool his father and 'anyone listening' with messages about renouncing his quest for force knowledge, all the while totally not doing that and going on missions for the Alliance. His family's fortunes have gone into a tail-spin (engineered by the Inquisition), and the character has finally decided to go home and face his family.
The betrayal thing has come from an idea I had about one of the other characters. That character is an Aggressor, and has been slowly sinking down the Morality scale, to the point where he's just on the cusp of turning to the Dark Side. I approached the player with a question: how would the character react if he was offered a place in the Inquisition in return for turning in the rest of the party? I've told the player that he is free to answer in whatever way he sees fit, i.e. he can agree to betray them and go dark side, or he can give the Inquisition the finger and tell the rest of the players, or he even can tell me that he would absolutely betray them, while planning with the other players to double-cross the Inquisition and either tell me or not tell me about it. Any of those is fine by me, and I believe the rest of the group to be mature enough to roll with it. Character betrayal is a delicate thing, but I think it will be worth it for this campaign finale.
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Post by weaselcreature on Jul 31, 2017 7:40:12 GMT -8
Still listening, but I wanted to get this down before I forget to (happens a lots since I listen during my commute). A counterpoint to jazzisblues' bit on positive/negative metagaming and whether "does the thing you're about to do contribute to the game." JiB was for having secrets in the open to make sure actions contributed to the game, and not being an asshole to the other player [disclaimer: I'm not talking about players who are doing things to screw the party, like Jason's later anecdote about having 2 players who were secret agents that were going to be problematic for the party, I'm talking about secrets that could possibly cause tension but aren't actively anti-party, like Gina's character]. If the secret is in the open, you run into the problem Stu mentioned where you come up with something your character would do, but then you second guess on whether there was some subconscious prodding from your meta knowledge, OR if the action you came up with might mess with someones secret, you don't do it because you don't want to come across as an asshole. This is denying you and your character something they would do. If the secret is hidden, and you come up with that same idea, you're going to go through with it, since you don't knowingly nor subconsciously know it's going to affect the other players secret. The player with the secret then will need to do some quick thinking to alter their plans, and that's fun stuff right there. This is even more pronounced in an Actual Play, where we, the audience, know Gina's secret, and we know the other players don't know the secret, so if one of those characters comes up with an action that WE know could mess with Gina's character, it's more entertaining for us! All that being said, not all secrets should be secret. JiB's open secret needs to be open. Unless he was only going to work his magic in subtle, rare ways, it is not conducive to having this a private secret. It would be unwieldy to send the rest of the party out every time he wanted to cast a spell in combat. Sure he could do it with notes to Stu, then Stu tells him to roll, he rolls and the magic effect happens, and everyone knows the secret anyway. This is a good secret to have in the open. As I mentioned in the specific BBT thread with the poll, I prefer not knowing things my player wouldn't know, but it can't be so obtrusive that it constantly negatively affects the table. If the sidebars were happening constantly, or the note passing was constant, thus taking the GMs attention away to read then reply to the note, that needs to stop. I don't feel it's anywhere near that mark in the BBT game, though.
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shane
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 1
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Post by shane on Jul 31, 2017 14:26:26 GMT -8
Re Zack's boring Savage Worlds combat. I'd add - what makes something dynamic is if the balances and incentives keep changing. Zack said once he found a tactically advantageous position he just stayed shot any nazi that came into view. The thing for the GM to notice is that if it's tactically advantageous for Zack, it's tactically *dis*advantageous for the Nazis, and they should start looking for better approaches than sticking their head round the same corner where their last five friends died. Flank him if you can, distract him, come in a rush - try something that he has to react to. It makes more sense for the NPCs, and it is more fun for the players.
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mxreese
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 2
Preferred Game Systems: D&D 5e, Vampire 20th, Savage Worlds, Dread, Hackmaster 4e
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Post by mxreese on Jul 31, 2017 16:22:29 GMT -8
If I understood Gina correctly, at around 38 minutes she asked what the listeners found more enjoyable as listeners of the actual plays. I find it entertaining when there is something going on in game that not all the players know, at least at the frequency and duration that it has happened in the Happy Jacks APs that I've listened to. This is my first post, so I won't be specific because I'm not sure where the line is, but when all but one player leave the room in Mote of Sin are some of my favorite moments. The anticipation of waiting for whatever might happen when the other characters find out is sweetened by the added drama that the players of those characters also don't know for certain what happened either.
On the other hand, if the other players of Blood, Blade, and Tusk didn't know Jib's character's secret, things would become profoundly tedious very quickly every time there was a combat and it would probably be pretty obvious to the players.
As a player, I'm with Stu. If my character doesn't know, things are both much less complicated and more suspenseful for me if I don't know what my character doesn't know. It's easier to not subconsciously metagame and to stay immersed in character rather than constantly asking myself how my character would respond and then parsing out what they do or don't know.
As a GM, I still prefer to have private sidebars because I most often run games for newcomers to the hobby, so anything I can do to help them have less information they need to mentally juggle while they learn is something I'm likely to try.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 17:20:02 GMT -8
Some thoughts on the L5R turning into D&D with Samurai:
It can happen. A lot. If you haven't checked it out, I highly recommend the old (first edition) GM'S Survival Guide - it's on drivethrurpg also. It has so much world information, but it also delves into story building, ideas, etc. I'm not sure how late the editions got before they got away from the Challenge/Focus/Strike adventure ideas -- basically, Challenge is the premise of what's going on (for example, escorting an old bard to a noble's funeral), the Focus is for example he dies on the way but has left the oration he was going to give, and the Strike is... how do you deal with it? Do you offer it as a last gift of his life, or do you pass it on as your work and gain fame while knowing that's not yours?
Another piece of advice for the game is something they wrote in the old Way of the Scorpion. This is a long time ago, but it fits with what you see in new games as far as connections and bonds. For a character, make a loyalty chart, with slots equal to your Honor + 2. So, Honor 2 is 4. Write down, in order, what you value. Say, Empire, then Clan, then Family, then Dojo, or maybe Wife, children, Clan, Empire. If you have that written down, for one thing you have a blueprint of issues that are important to a character, and you also have a guideline for where their interpretation of Bushido is. Put those in dramatic conflict.
And remember - an antagonist isn't an enemy. It's the person who challenges you, who makes you change. I'd read an interesting piece about how Andy isn't the protagonist of Shawshank Redemption; Red is. Andy is the antagonist because he causes Red to evolve and free himself. It doesn't mean he's not the major character but...
/ramble
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Post by joecrak on Aug 1, 2017 6:06:46 GMT -8
I'm with Jason. Have all the secrets on the table. It makes for faster play, and takes away the feeling that I don't enjoy of "I wish i knew what was going on!"
With everything in the open, it gives other players a chance to enjoy the story that's happening when they aren't involved.
Plus, it doesn't help that most games I play that have 'secrets', you are required to read them out loud during character creation.
Like in the Masks game, how The Doomed really wants to kiss one of the other PC's!
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Post by joecrak on Aug 1, 2017 7:49:49 GMT -8
Re: L5R, I'd say focus less on Honor and the tenets of bushido, as they are all pretty subjective to each clan and character.
Focus more on the antagonists you create.
More courtly antagonists, or even just a magistrate force full of politically backed corruption, that leads the pcs on an IA style investigation.
Have them chase down leads of smugglers, that are paying off the magistrates.
Finally, an easy way is to have people that surrender before ever getting in a combat.
It's all about what you put forth.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2017 14:26:17 GMT -8
Re: L5R, I'd say focus less on Honor and the tenets of bushido, as they are all pretty subjective to each clan and character. Focus more on the antagonists you create. More courtly antagonists, or even just a magistrate force full of politically backed corruption, that leads the pcs on an IA style investigation. Have them chase down leads of smugglers, that are paying off the magistrates. Finally, an easy way is to have people that surrender before ever getting in a combat. It's all about what you put forth. I agree. It's pretty easy to make noble heroic Scorpions and villanous Lions; people tend to overlook the Ikoma spymasters of the Lion or the Daidoji harriers for the Crane (master saboteurs) Another good resource for L5R is the Kaze no Shiro archives online. They have archived pretty much every L5R fiction that's been published - official stuff. There are interesting story seeds or ideas to be harvested and reskinned out of there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 1:39:55 GMT -8
Looking back at this, the part about 'Have people surrender before even getting in a combat' in an investigation game is genius. Why would you risk your life if you're tied to some group running things? You're not part of some great Cause to Change The World, surrender and let your people smooth things over. How many times do you see bad guys in media get away with it just because of who they know? And creates a REAL mess if the PCs just dust the guys after they've surrendered
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