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Post by ilina on Oct 5, 2017 17:58:12 GMT -8
all too often, you feel tempted to roll up an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster, only to realize some other class not only is good enough at the desired role to replace them, but has higher level spells with less restrictions and a faster progression.
a Bard, is good enough at stealth and combat to replace a rogue, and has better, faster and less restricted spell choices than the Arcane Trickster
a Hexblade Pact of the Blade Warlock, War Cleric, and Bladesinger Wizard are good enough at fighting to fill in for the fighter, and they also have faster, better and less restricted spell choices than the Eldritch Knight
my Solution to at least help the EK and AT just a little is to remove the restrictions on what schools they can pick thier low level wizard spells from. it won't make them overpowered at all and will merely provide a boost in low level options. let them pick any of thier 1st-4th level spells from the wizard list. not just from 1 or 2 wizard schools that have almost no options these classes can truly use. Arcane Tricksters are normally forced to use illusions and enchantments, which include a lot of spells that are negated by a mere saving throw on a class that can't really pump the DCs because they are based on a Tertiary Attribute. love some no save buffing and utility spells.
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 6, 2017 0:30:14 GMT -8
<Sigh>. It wasn't until I saw your other post, about reskinning an AT to fit (yet again) another anime trope, that this post made sense. By sense I mean context, it's pretty nonsensical otherwise. Why? - because your assumptions are flawed: 1) a Bard can 'fill in' for a Rogue BUT they're still NOT A ROGUE They're a Bard, with very Bardy skills to let them Bard and be Bard. 2) as above, the Warlock/Cleric etc aren't actually Fighters. This then brings us to a question of class balance. 3) a Bard can never out Rogue a Rogue because a Bard lacks certain Rogue abilities. 4) same for your Fighter substitutes (had you said Paladin or Ranger you would have had a point). Then the is the obvious oversight. 5) Bards/Clerics/Warlocks have their own unique spell lists. They don't have open access to all schools. Look at the Bard list, notice a theme to the spells (hint: music/sound) Finally this addresses the character types you want to buff: 6) AT's and EK's aren't anime characters, they're not nerfed they were designed to be something other than what you want them to be. E.g.: an AT is an Arcane TRICKSTER: a character type who uses trickery and deception to be a nefarious Rogue - such as, I dunno, illusion magic (/sarcasm) In conclusion, yes, your fix would fix the fact that the DnD 5e designers didn't give flying monkey fuck for incorporating anime tropes into a medieval fantasy genre of some 40+ years providence. Given the game was crowd sourced at Beta testing, it's safe to assume neither did the vast majority of people who participated in the Play Testing phase. So your suggestion basically fixes something that isn't broken ... but I'm pretty sure it would break something that previously wasn't, namely balance*. Stop trying to shove square pegs into round holes or claim a system is broken simply because isn't the game you really want to play (i.e.: 'Sailor Moon beats up Conan (and saves the world and everyone is in awe of her and loves her, because: Mary Sue). Aaron * and, more than likely, your poor GM's sanity.
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Post by ilina on Oct 6, 2017 1:29:15 GMT -8
it wouldn't make the game more animesque. the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight don't have a lot of viable spell choices at the early levels due to the school restrictions. especially the Arcane trickster, which has a lot of Spells that require saving throws on a Chassis that can't afford to bump the DC. as well as a lack of viable forms of damage that aren't piercing damage finesse weapon sneak attacks.
in fact, there are plenty of spells that would fit the arcane trickster utility theme that aren't illusions or enchantments. like a good amount of divinations, abjurations and transmutations. and even then, the slower spell progression would keep things plenty balanced on its own. even without school restrictions.
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 6, 2017 1:43:39 GMT -8
You're still trying to fit square pegs into round holes!!! Arcane Trickster is a 'trickster' - this 'utility theme' is nonsense, the AT is Rogue not a Swiss Army knife. The limitations at lower levels are by design - a PC is limited at low level because they are low level and therefore limited. Their constraints, restrictions and limitations are part of the challenge: the game part RPG's. By that I mean using ones noodle to overcome an obstacle creatively because your choice of handwave powers is limited. That's what makes it fun, and a game - not being S Super Mary Sue the All Singing, All Dancing, All Fighting, All Magicing. The reason for the limitations is so that the other PC's can shine any what they do best, like fighting or casting spells: you know, the other players at the table who are also there. It be a bit shit for the Wizard PC if your Sailor Moon wanna be comes along and say 'yeah, I can cast that too AND do this as well'. Aaron
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Post by ilina on Oct 6, 2017 1:57:14 GMT -8
the character isn't S Rank though. they are still limited to spells of 4th level and lower from the wizard list. they just have mre flexibility in which 1st-4th level wizard spells they can take. which is balanced by knowing fewer spells and having fewer spells per day than a real caster.
a lot of utility spells would be great on the arcane trickster list
Fog Cloud for portable cover to allow sneaking away out of combat
Magic weapon for enhancing that finesse weapon you sneak atack with
Detect Magic for Finding Magic Traps
Detect Secret Doors for Finding Secret Doors
Mage Armor for an easily concealable form of protection on Stealth Missions
Spider Climb for Climbing
See Invisibility for Spotting Invisible Enemy Rogues
Glitterdust for making Enemy rogues visible
each of these would be better than a Charm Person with a Shitty DC and play true to the rogue's role without breaking things and would merely Emulate magic items rogues have used for decades to do thier roguish stuff.
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Post by ilina on Oct 6, 2017 2:04:26 GMT -8
if you look at all the first level illusion and enchantment spells for the wizard you have
Silent Image, which is DM dependent
Sleep, which is useless past level 1
Color Spray, which is also useless psast level 1
and Charm Person which has a shitty DC
Edit: i forgot Tasha's Hideous Laughter. which also has a Shitty DC
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 6, 2017 3:23:33 GMT -8
So you're pissed that your Mary Sue can't cast these spells . . . spells designed to buff primary spell casters. You want to have your Mary Sue cake and eat it to?. Shitty DC at low levels is, also, by design - so that you can fail ... because: low level and more interesting. The point of an Arcane TRICKSTER is, again, being TRICKY. Your sneak attack is ALREADY buffed, you want another buff gratis, you want spider climb to climb because you don't want to roll those pesky dice and use the climb skill of your class or you want to buff your armour if you fail to be stealthy (like your PC has trained to be). Basically you believe an AT is a failed Rogue who uses magic to replace skill - so why didn't they call it an 'Arcane Lazy Cunt Who Wants to be a Rogue Without Any Actual Effort and is Really a Mage'? BTW: if you think ColoUr Spray is useless after 1st level you're using it wrong Aaron
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Post by the0gekko0state on Oct 7, 2017 13:20:21 GMT -8
I have to agree with Kainguru on some things. The Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knights are not supposed to be full magic users. They are people who dabble in some magic. So allowing a larger list of spells just doesn't make sense to me. I also agree that in 5E it's not so much as what you have but as how you use it.
I am playing a lvl 5 fighter in a home brew world my friend has created. I play a battle master and would I like to be able to change superiority dice effects, but I have accepted the fact that I have what. I use what I have to make sure I can get from fight to fight. So that my friends characters can get from fight to fight. I'm a fighter so my job is to soak damage and take out people. So that others can cast spells and keep me alive.
I guess what I'm trying to say as well is that the game is a group game. Not something for one person to do everything. Even if it was one on one gaming I would still run it so that you'd then have to hire people to fill roles.
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HazelnutMudslide
Supporter
Posts: 129
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, 7th Sea, TriStat, WoD, D&D5e
Currently Playing: Nothing (LFG)
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Favorite Species of Monkey: grease, never know when you'll need one to fix things.
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Post by HazelnutMudslide on Oct 12, 2017 3:21:21 GMT -8
If class balance is that quick and easy, why not simply write up and publish your own variant class so everyone can enjoy it?
Sadly I think this is a case of wanting to force a description to fit a need rather than acceptance of an actual design concept.
So in short, “lead by example”, don’t debate it, present a full rounded argument.
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Post by ilina on Oct 12, 2017 20:48:05 GMT -8
i guess i got too focused into trying to convert an old flagship forum character of mine to a D&D 5e character. i mean my mascot character.
Edit: Snipped a bit of Off Topic Rambling
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