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Post by ilina on Dec 24, 2017 18:38:33 GMT -8
i don't find tracking age modifiers to be very fun and i frequently saw people using thier character's age and lifespan as a way to minmax how many haste spells they can benefit from which fucked over humans as the baseline race and rewarded demihumans because there was never a game where humans drastically exceeded the demihuman level limit. you would at the very best get a human wizard who was one or two levels ahead of the elven wizard that really had tangible racial benefits. i really don't want to get into mathematical equations to optimize the number of haste spells you can benefit from before your character is magically useless. plus there were a massive number of tables that waived or raised demihuman class restrictions or level limits which made humans look useless in comparison. even if you allowed humans to multiclass.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 25, 2017 9:18:16 GMT -8
Basically, that’s why there are so many lich’s In ADnD 1e only humans could become archmages That’s some pretty terrifying magic at that level. Ageing also stopped all those archmages making endless wishes, etc. Demi human level limits, even in 2e, BTB were pretty brutal and limiting. What exceptions are you referring to that allowed them to be bypassed? A wish a level? - how many mages can cast wish and are willing to give up their life force for gold (can’t spend it when you’re dead). Remember just because you are the right level to cast a wish doesn’t mean you know how to - you’ve got to find the spell then learn the spell (suddenly those bonus points in Intelligence for getting older start to pay off). With 5e reworking wisdom those bonus points accrued by age/life experience also have a rather more positive benefit. The old grizzled fighter who still wins fights because he can see a fight coming and knows enough to pick only those ones he can win - “now now lad, the key to growing old is knowing when you can win ... we’ll let discretion be the better part of valor this day and retreat to a quiet tavern. Youth and spunk is all very well but nowt much use if yer end up dead for trying” Besides, BTB, players shouldn’t know their characters maximum age. Giving the demihuman a potion of speed is good tactics, part of working as a group and minimising party risk. You’ve also highlighted why, in RP, demihumans are treated with suspicion in most human nations and vice-a-versa (bloody humans, can’t trust them they breed like rabbits and far too many of them are capable of being one man weapons of mass destruction). But level limits don’t exist in 5e so the whole arguement is skewed but not enough to say humans should be allowed to outlive elves. Realistically a campaign is snap shot in the life of a bunch of characters - very few adventurers die of natural causes, and if they retire then their story has been told (who retires longer is pretty moot by that point). Aaron
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Post by ilina on Dec 25, 2017 21:36:26 GMT -8
a common houserule i saw at local tables was for Clerics, Wizards, Rogues and Fighters (base classes only but not subclasses). each point above 15 for a single classed demihuman of that class increased the level cap by 1. so an Elven Wizard with 18 intelligence could gain up to 3 additional levels. it was also uncommon for humans to be more than 2 levels higher than single classed demihumans because campaigns ended early and years of lifespan were removed from spell costs and replaced with a requirement of a high amount of precious gemstones. typically 10,000 gold per year of life it would have cost in the original rules.
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Post by ilina on Dec 25, 2017 22:27:25 GMT -8
i came across a 5e specific observation. the removal of aging modifiers, the removal of racial penalties, the inclusion of point buy in the player's handbook for default attribute generation, and the lack of bonuses to pile onto a single roll all add to a character's 6 attributes being extremely important. in fact, rolling for random attributes, including aging modifiers, and including extra flat bonuses upset the 5th edition math because each individual attribute point is that much more precious and a semblance of balance between player characters is that much more precious. this is also why a lot of the minmax stuff got heavily toned down or removed.
i mean, aging modifiers and remaining years of lifeforce were a resource in 1e but it was a resource that was of absolutely no consequence to demihumans and not knowing your character's maximum age as a player makes it impossible to make an informed decision about whether or not to cast a particular spell. this is generally the issue with most secret rolls and most secret target numbers. they could easily be fudged to screw players over in what is already a game of attrition. there are in fact many 1e elements that don't sit well with 5e such as aging modifiers, maximum ages, the exotic weapons category, randomly determined attributes, randomly determined hit point totals, potential chances to qualify for superior classes, racial attribute penalties, or feat chains.
i like a player being able to make an informed decision in out of character discussion before they expend a resource that could potentially kill or at least cripple thier character. if you now you are taking a huge penalty to strength, dexterity and constitution the moment you cast that haste spell and turn 61. you can at least know now is the time to go out in a blaze of glory.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 26, 2017 1:54:02 GMT -8
No no no no - the ‘default’, as you call it, is germaine to The Adventurers League. Randomly determined hitpoints and attributes are just a valid as point buy in any home game. The system isn’t designed to favour one method over the other - point buy is used in Adventurers league, mainly, as a way of spotting cheating and keep a totally level playing field across the 1000’s of groups and participants around the globe. Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 26, 2017 2:58:07 GMT -8
a common houserule i saw at local tables was for Clerics, Wizards, Rogues and Fighters (base classes only but not subclasses). each point above 15 for a single classed demihuman of that class increased the level cap by 1. so an Elven Wizard with 18 intelligence could gain up to 3 additional levels. it was also uncommon for humans to be more than 2 levels higher than single classed demihumans because campaigns ended early and years of lifespan were removed from spell costs and replaced with a requirement of a high amount of precious gemstones. typically 10,000 gold per year of life it would have cost in the original rules. That’s still a house rule. BTB for 1e is in UA, in 2e various systems are mooted in the DMG (including dropping limits all together and using RP to explain why there are few Arch Mage Elves - because flighty, long term view of the world, easily side trekked etc ). Either way the end result (excepting droppIng limits) is restriction of maximum level. So two PC’s WILL be a similar level throughout the life of a campaign - until the demi human maxes out. This is why most demi humans were multiclassed: which would slow down their progression. In my home (2e) campaign I dropped level limits - because none of the players sit around obsessing over race disparity/mechanics: they play to a concept of their character, which includes flaws and weaknesses (they need each other to survive). No one envies the dwarf fighter when he tanks damage because he has to get up and personal with the big bad, or the human illusionsist who is squishy and finds not all opponents are susceptible to mound magic, or the half-elf Druid when the responsibilities of her Order dictate some of her choices, or the elven ranger who is best with a bow but not so good hand to hand. In a mixed group those small advantages demihumans bring, they bring to the group rather than the individual - because no one character is all things to all people (there’s a good life lesson in there). It’s only a problem if the players sit around obsessing about what they cannot do and comparing it to the characters of other players. In real terms level limits and life expectancy due to age will only come into effect with years long campaigns - and by then all surviving characters will have to deal with the RP aspects of the world ... ie: what happens when the human retainers of a high level elven Lord (fighter) get old?, what myths will start in the local community when their Lord is basically deathless?, what happens when that Lords perspective is one of decades rather than day to day management?, when does such a figure cease being seen as benevolent and more dictatorial? Or what if the elven Lord founds a keep in elf lands and finds that the small and mainly elven population don’t share his/her desire for haste in confronting the threats from without?, how long before such vassals accuse their Lord of being contaminated by prolonged contact with the shorter lived, lesser, races (‘no my Lord, I advise we just shut our borders and wait it out like we always do, the threat will pass soon enough - be it decade or two or three or ten, what does it matter to us?”). Powerful magics should have powerful consequences. One house rule I’d suggest is that such magics that age, should age proportionately to the race of the character. Otherwise everyone would be casting them (‘ah, shit, I thought the Kingdom of Blah Blag was safe behind a walled perimeter .... no sign of it now, must have been wished away. Don’t matter it’ll back next week when someone else wishes it back again’) Aaron
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tyler
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 226
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Post by tyler on Dec 26, 2017 11:06:34 GMT -8
Just chiming in on the 5e Ghost. Don't change the aging effect to damage. That's ridiculous.
The aging effect isn't the main power of the ability, it's a ribbon. The main power of the ability is to apply the frightened condition. The aging only occurs if the save is failed by 5 or more, and is meant to be a roleplay thing, that the GM can then throw players a hook to reverse the aging, or to then have to deal with returning home significantly older and having to explain it to people. Not everything has to have a stat modifier attached to it.
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Post by ilina on Dec 26, 2017 15:56:40 GMT -8
Just chiming in on the 5e Ghost. Don't change the aging effect to damage. That's ridiculous. The aging effect isn't the main power of the ability, it's a ribbon. The main power of the ability is to apply the frightened condition. The aging only occurs if the save is failed by 5 or more, and is meant to be a roleplay thing, that the GM can then throw players a hook to reverse the aging, or to then have to deal with returning home significantly older and having to explain it to people. Not everything has to have a stat modifier attached to it. i forgot the aging was just a Ribbon for applying the frightened condition. guess because it is just a ribbon i can easily remove it. if the only effect if had was the aging, i would replace it with damage because player characters are affected more by damage than by age in 5e. but removing the ribbon and applying the frightened condition is plenty. i found that it is better to hit the wallet with personal aging effects because everyone feels the sting of taking a hit to the wallet and it also removes some of the excess gold from the game, i found that including magic mart, including magic item commissions, including license tithes to an explorer's guild in exchange for legal benefits, purchasing strongholds, hiring hirelings, hiring mercenaries, recruiting and funding followers, advertising for very specific cohorts, spreading reputation to gain connections, and turning the stronghold into a viable settlement generally serve as fairly viable gold sinks. a general deal i do for people who don't want to bother with aging effects in 5e is to choose a particular age for their character and make a case for why their character has not aged from that point. "my character sold her soul to a nymph to be young and beautiful forever" or "my character's physical development halted entirely upon developing sorcerous powers" are both cliche but valid answers, but because your aging stopped entirely and you don't have to deal with the physical penalties for aging, you have to give a little something by giving up the bonuses of youth as well as the bonuses of age. having absolutely no modifiers for any age category whatsoever.
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Post by ilina on Dec 26, 2017 22:01:27 GMT -8
i try to include lots of gold sinks. to increase character versatility and add options. i include such permanent effects as a skill tome with a predetermined skill. reading the skill tome over a five day period for the first time by one individual grants a nonproficient user proficiency in that particular skill proficiency, language proficiency, weapon proficiency or tool proficiency. now, you could spend 10 weeks of downtime, modified by a number of weeks added or subtracted equal to your intelligence score and 100 gold in training materials per 5 day workweek, at 8 hours a day, which can be anywhere from 500 to 1500 gold and literally take 5-15 workweeks per proficiency or you could spend 3,000 gold on a tome that teaches you in 5 days. i find most people would rather spend the 3,000 if they have it because downtime is used for many other things like crafting items, making contacts, or recruiting cohorts, followers or hirelings, plus building a stronghold takes so much money and so many weeks supervision the construction.
there is a reason i allow each player to rotate between multiple characters. so they can continue play while the character they wanted to play is busy.
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