bobcatt
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An infinite number of monkeys can't be wrong...
Posts: 81
Preferred Game Systems: AD&D 1e, 2e, 5e, Top Secret/S.I., Classic Traveller
Currently Playing: nothing at all :-(
Currently Running: completely stalled doing 5e via Roll20
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Post by bobcatt on Dec 21, 2017 15:09:13 GMT -8
I was poking through my 1e DMG a few nights ago to verify the effects on character age from casting/receiving certain spells - i.e. Haste, Gate, Wish, etc. (page 13, Unnatural Aging). A human mage would think twice about aging 3-5 years from casting a spell (and likely having to make a System Shock roll).
I may have missed it, but I don't see this mechanic within 5e. Does anyone know when this content was removed (and/or why?)
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Post by ayslyn on Dec 21, 2017 15:13:38 GMT -8
Because it was one of the more ubiquitous house rules. Generally speaking, people don’t consider it fun.
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Post by EricaOdd on Dec 21, 2017 15:26:11 GMT -8
Which is weird, since they brought back abilities that age characters, such as the ghost.
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Post by ilina on Dec 21, 2017 18:07:27 GMT -8
Age really has no impact on any aspect of your character in 5e due to the removal of aging modifiers and the removal of maximum ages. there are average lifespans but 5th edition allows a 13 year old girl to be as strong and as skilled as the 25 year old man she adventures with or as wise as a 45 year old veteran that is the party mentor as long as she can afford it with her 27 point allotment. so you can be way over the average maximum and look drastically younger than your real age and it has no effect. you can be a human who is older than the elven queen and look like you just graduated college.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 22, 2017 10:42:24 GMT -8
So, getting back to the OP (after that disturbing detour) - 5e is trying to avoid ‘rules bloat’: it’s one of those house rule things that’ll either turn up in UA or in the DM’s Guild. If you like the old aging rules from previous editions just insert them as is from said edition. Aaron
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Post by EricaOdd on Dec 22, 2017 15:26:55 GMT -8
That's great and I agree with the intent, but that leave creatures like the ghost with useless abilities. Oh, gee, the ghost moans and you age 1d4 x 10 years. It wasted its action this turn and did absolutely nothing, mechanically speaking.
If monstrous or magical abilities cause aging, IMO, then aging should mean something.
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Post by ilina on Dec 22, 2017 15:45:46 GMT -8
aging effects are just window dressing in 5e. i would just make it 10d4 necrotic damage with a charisma save for half.
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Post by ericfromnj on Dec 22, 2017 16:13:07 GMT -8
I remember running a module back in the 80's that had all the characters are to the Ancient column of the age categories and they ended up having to fight young duplicates of themselves. I remember the cover having a female brunette mage on the from cover. Anyone else remember this?
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bobcatt
Apprentice Douchebag
Patron
An infinite number of monkeys can't be wrong...
Posts: 81
Preferred Game Systems: AD&D 1e, 2e, 5e, Top Secret/S.I., Classic Traveller
Currently Playing: nothing at all :-(
Currently Running: completely stalled doing 5e via Roll20
Favorite Species of Monkey: Barrel of
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Post by bobcatt on Dec 22, 2017 19:40:17 GMT -8
I can remember the aging effects impacting player choices i.e. not using Potions of Speed or Haste spells too often, as the one year penalties would add up pretty fast (especially for humans). And, if they wanted a high level spell like Wish or Gate cast, they'd have to find someone willing to take a 3-5 year hit in exchange for some choice piece of magic or art.
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Post by ilina on Dec 22, 2017 21:40:23 GMT -8
I can remember the aging effects impacting player choices i.e. not using Potions of Speed or Haste spells too often, as the one year penalties would add up pretty fast (especially for humans). And, if they wanted a high level spell like Wish or Gate cast, they'd have to find someone willing to take a 3-5 year hit in exchange for some choice piece of magic or art. i found it rather unfun to track how many years your player character has left to live and having to deal with aging modifiers that made you unable to really do anything as a fighter but made you a god as a wizard. -6 to all 3 physical stats sucked for anybody who wasn't a pure caster, but +3 to all mental stats was a benefit that favored pure casters who didn't give a single fuck about their physical attributes such as wizards. and wizards could technically become an undead to as a means to bypass the physical attribute decay. plus, this especially fucked humans over when humans were supposed to be the baseline, and gave demihumans another massive reward that was generously combined with their waived level limits and class restrictions that was a popular houserule. humans had to waste gold on longevity potions to get their youth back while demihumans were pretty much young adults for hundreds if not thousands of years. plus, longevity potions weren't cheap and required a wizard who was willing to sacrifice their own youth to make it.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 23, 2017 3:30:44 GMT -8
That's great and I agree with the intent, but that leave creatures like the ghost with useless abilities. Oh, gee, the ghost moans and you age 1d4 x 10 years. It wasted its action this turn and did absolutely nothing, mechanically speaking. If monstrous or magical abilities cause aging, IMO, then aging should mean something. Personally I would plumb for the old ADnD 1e ageing effects table and insert that. Because as bobcatt notes it has other consequences as well - ‘magic has consequences’ (Shannara). Suddenly tried and true tactics like speed potions have to be weighed up and potions of longevity are a risk (because eventually you’ll hit the one that reverses the effects of all the others). As to why 5e hasn’t codified it yet? Probably because maximum ages are very setting specific - in Old GreyHawk elves lived about 2000yrs, tops then in 2e they went Tolkieny and became immortal but passed over to another land (Lendore Isle in GreyHawk From the Ashes 2e). I was never a fan of Forgotten Realms, because Elminister et al, but I believe it had different racial maximum ages. So until Wizards get around to writing it up we have to improvise* - but isn’t that the point of 5e? House rule it to fuck to suit your table. Ie: Just because there are no specific rules about ageing (yet) doesn’t equate to having permission for ancient teenagers calling Galadriel’s mother ‘youngster’ ... unless it’s fits your setting. In other words, such a set up (eternal humans) can’t be ‘rules lawyered’ into every game because of the absence of codified rules (at present). Their absence isn’t permission to ignore common sense - again the 5e ethos: use common sense to make rulings don’t lean on tomes of rules to anticipate every eventuality. FTR if it were my table a ‘college grad’ looking human calling Galadriel's Mum ‘youngster’ can look like a ‘college grad’ all she wants BUT her bones’ll be brittle (lower hitponts), she’ll have trouble lifting a spoon from her plate (lower strength) of softened gruel (and she better hope dentures have been invented) and she’ll have to to keep wrapped up to stop from catching a chill (lower Constitution). But then again she should be aware that calling Galadriel’s Mum ‘youngster’ is a bad idea (increased Intelligence/Wisdom). HOWEVER - there is Cohen the Barbarian from Disc World, one of my favourite Pratchett characters and one I’d play at the drop of a hat (Jackercon idea anyone?). Aaron * remember the full time Wizards DND RnD team could fit on a small minibus with seats to spare. That’s why DM’s Guild exists: a massive crowd based out sourcing to keep the ball rolling
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Post by ilina on Dec 23, 2017 11:23:58 GMT -8
i'd rather that a character's age not dictate thier ability to function and do thier job at a viable level because attributes matter more than ever in 5e due to a lack of stackable bonuses. i want to see apprentice aged wizards or old veteran warriors as viable character concepts and aging modifiers kill that.
with Aging Modifiers, a Human Warrior, Gish, Cleric, or Rogue over the Age of 25ish or a Human Spellcaster under the Age of 50ish were not viable as remotely functional concepts due to a decent martially inclined character having a huge demand for strength, dexterity and constitution while a dedicated pure caster only needed thier choice of intelligence, wisdom or charisma unless they were gishing it.
i get that aging modifiers add realism and versimilitude, but i don't find it fun to account for picking the age that provides the best bonuses for my class just as i'm glad gender based strength caps went the way of the dodo. there are plenty of fiction where the male mentor character is a badass warrior who is still in thier physical prime despite thier old age such as fire emblem shadow dragon. and there are many works like Harry Potter or Percy Jackson where the young spellcaster takes down drastically older older and drastically more experienced opponents. such as when Harry took down Voldemort, who was at least twice his age.
i also don't find it fun counting how many years my character has left before they are either outright dead or simply completely useless. so i change the ghosts moan to be 10d4 necrotic damage with a charisma save for half to make the ability still useful at a table where age has no influence. magic items that alter attributes in 5e tend to not be available for purchase and are usually up to RNG loot. and because of the lack of bonuses in 5e, every +1 matters a lot more.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 23, 2017 12:17:54 GMT -8
i'd rather that a character's age not dictate thier ability to function and do thier job at a viable level because attributes matter more than ever in 5e due to a lack of stackable bonuses. i want to see apprentice aged wizards or old veteran warriors as viable character concepts and aging modifiers kill that. with Aging Modifiers, a Human Warrior, Gish, Cleric, or Rogue over the Age of 25ish or a Human Spellcaster under the Age of 50ish were not viable as remotely functional concepts due to a decent martially inclined character having a huge demand for strength, dexterity and constitution while a dedicated pure caster only needed thier choice of intelligence, wisdom or charisma unless they were gishing it. i get that aging modifiers add realism and versimilitude, but i don't find it fun to account for picking the age that provides the best bonuses for my class just as i'm glad gender based strength caps went the way of the dodo. there are plenty of fiction where the male mentor character is a badass warrior who is still in thier physical prime despite thier old age such as fire emblem shadow dragon. and there are many works like Harry Potter or Percy Jackson where the young spellcaster takes down drastically older older and drastically more experienced opponents. such as when Harry took down Voldemort, who was at least twice his age. i also don't find it fun counting how many years my character has left before they are either outright dead or simply completely useless. so i change the ghosts moan to be 10d4 necrotic damage with a charisma save for half to make the ability still useful at a table where age has no influence. magic items that alter attributes in 5e tend to not be available for purchase and are usually up to RNG loot. and because of the lack of bonuses in 5e, every +1 matters a lot more. 1) Your downsides all sound like positives to me 2) If you're going to criticise a cited source .... know what you're talking. Your quoted age ranges are way off, as well as their impact vis-a-vis if you go BTB in 1e you will start pretty much at the bottom age range. By the time you're 25 you have already gained a point of strength and a point of constitution. By time you are 50 you've lost those bonus points for strength and constitution but picked up a point to wisdom and a point of intelligence. Yeah, really sucks to be old ... not. By 60 Base starting ability scores plus additional points in wisdom and intelligence: Life really does start at 60. Admittedly after 60 it's a bit shit, but by then you should have gained access to magic to counter it - if that's your bag, hey ho the road to Lichdom has to start somewhere ADnD 1e DMG Aaron PS: BTW, Harry was a mutherfucking horcrux and, by accident, the Master of the Elder Wand. As well as having, accidentally and unknowingly, bought the Deathly Hallows together (Cloak, Stone and Wand). No really a story of youth over age, but of the cunning and manipulation of an old dead guy (Dumbledore), the unintended consequences of prophesy and the sacrifice of others (Snape etc)
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Post by ilina on Dec 23, 2017 13:18:12 GMT -8
i guess the young adult, mature, and middle aged categories aren't completely horrible on their own for starting characters. the most i would probably do is disallow starting player characters to start with an age from the old or venerable age categories. which were the two i was truly worried about.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2017 11:16:01 GMT -8
I think the age thing was also part of the 'make the game note-takingly realistic'. Are you going to risk 3-5 years at a pop if you know at the outset that, barring mishaps, you'll only make it to 78 as a human? Possibly. Especially since the unnatural aging does NOT give you the mechanical benefits of natural aging.
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