mrcj
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 173
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Post by mrcj on Dec 27, 2017 8:00:26 GMT -8
I didn't see a thread yet for this episode. I watched "Bright" over the weekend and after it was done, I have to say that I liked it better the first time I saw it when it was called "Alien Nation." Alien Nation trailer
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 15:18:57 GMT -8
I'm not surprised to see someone connect it to Alien Nation, but... there's a lot of reasons for that. Ignoring the fact that there are supposedly only seven stories out there (or the Thirty-six Dramatic Situations by Georges Polti)you also have the issue of how Hollywood functions. All it takes to get something greenlit is to elevator-pitch two ideas that made money ("My idea is Twister combined with Jaws..." Hey, both those made money and got awards, sure, greenlight Sharknado)
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HJRP 2019
Dec 27, 2017 16:30:23 GMT -8
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Post by ericfromnj on Dec 27, 2017 16:30:23 GMT -8
JiB I believe you are right. It’s always a good time to play Masks.
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Post by ayslyn on Dec 28, 2017 21:05:30 GMT -8
Eric, if you're calling Jersey the Garden State in any sort of non-sarcastic manner, you must live in southern Jersey.... Because northern Jersey is always the "Garden" state. ^.^
But seriously, for Chris and the ceding of narrative control to the players. One thing that I'm surprised the hosts didn't warn against.... Asking things like "What about the tavern reminds you of home?" imposes a reaction on the player, taking away agency. It's up to the player what they feel. Better questions would be "What about the tavern common room do you notice first?" "Oh, um.... There are exactly thirteen pillars, staggered around the room that I recognize as a pattern to disrupt arcane energy."
or more simply "There is a well used knife target hanging on the wall."
Unless there is something imposing emotional reactions, then the GM should never ascribe reactions to the characters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 5:00:15 GMT -8
Actually I disagree that it is taking away agency, the player is still getting to decide. Saying 'what about the tavern reminds you of home?' is no different from asking 'name one thing that reminds you of home?' then saying that it is there.
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HJRP 2019
Dec 29, 2017 6:20:38 GMT -8
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Post by ericfromnj on Dec 29, 2017 6:20:38 GMT -8
Eric, if you're calling Jersey the Garden State in any sort of non-sarcastic manner, you must live in southern Jersey.... Because northern Jersey is always the "Garden" state. ^.^. I actually live in the Northern half but on the extreme west side of the state which is still beautiful. Hell if I go down my hill a mile and a half and cross a bridge I am in PA. I work further east where NJ becomes a gigantic set of strip malls and looks far less Garden State-ish.
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Dec 29, 2017 6:47:49 GMT -8
Actually I disagree that it is taking away agency, the player is still getting to decide. Saying 'what about the tavern reminds you of home?' is no different from asking 'name one thing that reminds you of home?' then saying that it is there. When I am GMing I feel weird telling my players "This one thing reminds of you of that one time this thing happened" because it makes me feel like I'm taking that agency away by dictating what their character has or hasn't done off screen instead of the player making that decision in the moment. However, there is a fine line where you're dictating a character's past and referencing an element of an established backstory. So instead of figuring out "is this the right thing to do" at my table I ask the players to add those details into the game in the moment. I will be a little more pointed about it, though: Now we have an element to carry forward as a descriptive set piece for the other players and it took, like, two minutes. Alternatively, should Albrecht have responded like Stu with "I don't know, it's your world, you tell me" that is definitely my sign that this player does not want to do the heavy lifting and when it comes to his character I'm the one defining any specific details that relate to his character. Again, it takes no time to figure this out in the moment and move the story forward. All this to say, know your players. If some players want to do the descriptions and flashbacks at the table, great, ping them as much as you can. If they don't, then don't bother them with it anymore.
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Post by ayslyn on Dec 29, 2017 7:56:48 GMT -8
Actually I disagree that it is taking away agency, the player is still getting to decide. Saying 'what about the tavern reminds you of home?' is no different from asking 'name one thing that reminds you of home?' then saying that it is there. You're telling the player that the tavern DOES remind them of home.... That's pretty much one of the main definitions of taking away agency. Unless there is a spell on the tavern that makes people feel as though they are home, then it's up to the player, not you, if it reminds them of anything. See. OTHP does it right. You tell them that there is something they already know, ask them what it is, and what the significance is. The player is still in charge of what memory/emotion is invoked. The player get's to decide if their character has a happy memory, a bittersweet memory, a terrifying memory....
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Post by ayslyn on Dec 29, 2017 8:01:35 GMT -8
Eric, if you're calling Jersey the Garden State in any sort of non-sarcastic manner, you must live in southern Jersey.... Because northern Jersey is always the "Garden" state. ^.^. I actually live in the Northern half but on the extreme west side of the state which is still beautiful. Hell if I go down my hill a mile and a half and cross a bridge I am in PA. I work further east where NJ becomes a gigantic set of strip malls and looks far less Garden State-ish. Former, thankfully brief, Bayonne resident here... My opinion of the state could be.... skewed. ^.^
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Post by chronovore on Dec 29, 2017 19:33:58 GMT -8
Eric, if you're calling Jersey the Garden State in any sort of non-sarcastic manner, you must live in southern Jersey.... Because northern Jersey is always the "Garden" state. ^.^ But seriously, for Chris and the ceding of narrative control to the players. One thing that I'm surprised the hosts didn't warn against.... Asking things like "What about the tavern reminds you of home?" imposes a reaction on the player, taking away agency. It's up to the player what they feel. Better questions would be "What about the tavern common room do you notice first?" "Oh, um.... There are exactly thirteen pillars, staggered around the room that I recognize as a pattern to disrupt arcane energy." or more simply "There is a well used knife target hanging on the wall." Unless there is something imposing emotional reactions, then the GM should never ascribe reactions to the characters. Also, Kimi 's "sometimes you just want to play in the world, you don't want to make the world" resonates with me. That said, I love the ideas which were presented. It's got me thinking about how to draw out more personal reactions from my players through their characters. I LOL'd at jazzisblues reaction about an unlocked computer. Ha! Not sure about the self-destruct options. I just have a MedicAlert bracelet that reads, "DELETE MY BROWSER HISTORY."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 2:02:33 GMT -8
Actually I disagree that it is taking away agency, the player is still getting to decide. Saying 'what about the tavern reminds you of home?' is no different from asking 'name one thing that reminds you of home?' then saying that it is there. You're telling the player that the tavern DOES remind them of home.... That's pretty much one of the main definitions of taking away agency. Unless there is a spell on the tavern that makes people feel as though they are home, then it's up to the player, not you, if it reminds them of anything. See. OTHP does it right. You tell them that there is something they already know, ask them what it is, and what the significance is. The player is still in charge of what memory/emotion is invoked. The player get's to decide if their character has a happy memory, a bittersweet memory, a terrifying memory.... Yes, but I'm letting them define what it is. If I were a writer then I'd know exactly what would make the character think of home and would have added it into the scene from the start. But I don't and I'm pretty confident that most players rarely consider little details like that so no matter what I added to the scene it would be unlikely to elicit an emotional response. As I said I could rearrange it to: GM - "Tell me one thing that makes you think of home" Player - "A roaring fire with a hog slowly roasting on it" GM - "Oh and in the corner you see a roaring fire with a hog slowly roasting on it..." but that is functionally no different from "what about the tavern makes you think of home"
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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HJRP 2019
Dec 30, 2017 5:53:32 GMT -8
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Post by fredrix on Dec 30, 2017 5:53:32 GMT -8
I think the question i’d ask would be a bit different. Something along the lines of “you look into a few pubs before choosing one you all agree on - what do you like about it ?”
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Post by ayslyn on Dec 30, 2017 8:31:30 GMT -8
You're telling the player that the tavern DOES remind them of home.... That's pretty much one of the main definitions of taking away agency. Unless there is a spell on the tavern that makes people feel as though they are home, then it's up to the player, not you, if it reminds them of anything. See. OTHP does it right. You tell them that there is something they already know, ask them what it is, and what the significance is. The player is still in charge of what memory/emotion is invoked. The player get's to decide if their character has a happy memory, a bittersweet memory, a terrifying memory.... Yes, but I'm letting them define what it is. If I were a writer then I'd know exactly what would make the character think of home and would have added it into the scene from the start. But I don't and I'm pretty confident that most players rarely consider little details like that so no matter what I added to the scene it would be unlikely to elicit an emotional response. As I said I could rearrange it to: GM - "Tell me one thing that makes you think of home" Player - "A roaring fire with a hog slowly roasting on it" GM - "Oh and in the corner you see a roaring fire with a hog slowly roasting on it..." but that is functionally no different from "what about the tavern makes you think of home" You are Still imposing your idea of what the character should be feeling on the player. Only this time you’re being more manipulative. That’s textbook railroading. That’s taking away their agency.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 9:39:50 GMT -8
I guess we're going to have to just disagree here. I don't see it as railroading and I certainly don't consider it manipulative. I wouldn't have an issue with a player saying it probably wouldn't remind them of home but I see it as a tool to engage players and draw them into building world elements involving their characters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 13:34:18 GMT -8
Personally, I don't see how asking a player what reminds them of home about a tavern takes away their agency. To me, taking away their agency is when you dictate their behavior. Asking what reminds them of home can lead to other things. That smell of pepper corns that your barbarian tribe cooks with might be because the owner is from that tribe, or has spent time in that area. That might lead to a level of 'I can trust this stranger a bit more because he gets where I come from'. And also it could be used as a clue to the players; it makes me think of one my ABSOLUTE favorite movie quotes, and definitely best Bond movie quote:
Zukovsky: Another morning shot to hell. [zips up a girl's dress] Free market economy, I swear it will be the end of me. [hears the click of Bond's gun.] Walther PPK, 7.65 millimetre. Only three men I know use such a gun... and I believe I've killed two of them.
I think it all boils down to the players at your table and knowing them. What is their level of commitment to the game or desire to add to it more? Some players will absolutely run with a chance to describe what is familiar to their character if asked, in much the same way as some players love to have props for games (fans and tea in L5R ftw), and some players are more the type of 'I just want to interact with the story.' By the same token, the GM can't be making them do all the heavy lifting, making the players do all the descriptions to make up for their lack of prep work or lack of desire to improvise.
Like anything, know your audience.
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