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Post by rickno7 on May 28, 2012 8:06:36 GMT -8
We all hear about the birth of 4th Edition. Hasbro says "your company isn't doing $50 million a year, get more people" so they say "ok, our fanbase now is not doing it for us, let's go after WoW"
That kinda hurt way back then, because they basically said "what if we lose almost all of our 3.x players?" and someone there said "that is acceptable"
Now we have 5th Edition, and to some extent this has happened all over again. They looked at the 4th Edition crowd and found it was not paying off as well as it should. Now they want to get in on the OD&D crowd and the Pathfinder people(D20 rules with AD&D mentality is essentially 3.x IMO). Someone said "what about the 4th edition crowd?" and WOTC is regulating them to optional supplement status at best.
Does anyone base their decisions on the morals of the company that make the product?
Just because they are going for a more AD&D and 3.x feel now doesn't mean they'll keep it forever. I imagine in 5 years they'll be doing another full on shift to whatever looks like will get the highest retention rate.
I'm not a 4th Ed guy, but I sort of hope someone picks them up in the way Pathfinder picked up the 3.x crowd. Its like the 3.x crowd can look at the 4th Ed guys and say "its ok, we understand, we've both been slapped by WOTC, stop hating editions and maybe start rewarding BETTER business practices"
And I know people say "why shouldn't a company go after the biggest crowd, the company is in it for the money" and I have to say that this is one industry where there are plenty of good businesses that aren't cut throat corporate types that make great product, care about the customer, and love the games they do. There are legit moral alternatives. The number one selling RPG currently is outselling D&D as much for their customer service as they are for being the continuation of 3.x IMO.
This is all just something I've been thinking about lately. Even if 5th Ed is a good product, do I support WOTC or not? Does anyone else have these reservations on giving money to WOTC over their general corporate culture?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2012 9:25:40 GMT -8
What did WoTC do that was not moral or "legit"? They took a risk with 4e, they went though with it and mostly it failed, just like they took a risk with 3e and was wildly succesfull and the hobby was made richer because of that.
People describing them as if they are the EA, Activision or Ubisoft or whatever of the rpg industry, that's what I think about when I hear about questionable bussiness practices, what comparable cut-throat coprorate sin has WoTC commited to warrant such a status? If the game is good people will hopefully buy it, if not they won't. It sounds to me a bit hipster-ish when people complain about WoTC being "evil, corporate sell-outs" when they most likely use devices assembled by child/slave labour.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2012 9:57:29 GMT -8
the problem isn't WoTC but more Hasbro, they want to see the bottom line every year, they see potential profit successes and potential profit failures, and as a big corporation they biggest concern isn't about their products, but their profits. It trickles down to the smaller companies under the corporation's banners, they have to make enough money with their profits. Does WoTC care about gamers? i think so, at least to some level, but they are over a barrel with D&D with Hasbro greasing them up for not making enough money.
This is what happens when a major corporation like Hasbro has it's hands in the gaming industry, they don't realize that niche markets like this are not major cash cows. and that the fans aren't goin to buy the damn products because it has a logo on it. in the end Hasbro is forcing WoTC to be cut throat because they haven't hit a profitable production cycle like they do with Magic the Gathering.....
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oldnemrod
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 92
Preferred Game Systems: WOD (old and new), 4E DnD, Shadowrun, 5E DND,
Currently Playing: Star Wars Saga Edition( I'M A MANDALORIAN!)
Currently Running: 5E Hoard of the Dragon Queen
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Post by oldnemrod on May 28, 2012 12:40:23 GMT -8
I think you just enjoy DnD for what it is while you can. It is a niche market like you said and eventually Hasbro will have to look at what sells and what is a pet project that is a gamble. I don't know how long it has, but eventually you will either see DnD rights sold off or perhaps Magic the Gathering universe being the setting for future DnD books. "Buy the cards? Why don't you give the RPG a shot?" Then you might see the cards used in the RPG. Its about the only way they will get the profit they want.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2012 17:47:55 GMT -8
I see Hasbro sort of like the company that is buying my employer... They have garaunteed their investors a 30% return on investment and they are going to do whatever it take to do that - or the board of directors will replace the CEO with someone who will!
Many of us will lose our jobs, many more will take pay cuts that will range from 0 to 30 percent, maybe more!! Those that are allowed to stay will probably abandon ship ove the next year because of pay cuts...
Hasbro bought a brand name and a whole slew of related IP and they are not going to let it go, even if that means shelving it because it's not pulling the profit they want. They are going to continue to bash the head of the RPG department until money comes out... That's not HIS fault! He's tryng to pay his mortgage and put food on the table just like the rest of us. His desire to remain "true" to the D&D idea has to come in second when compared to keeping his family safe.
I used to be in a 40K club and I constantly heard people griping abut Games Workshop and their pricing and releasing new rules and new army books and new models and blah, blah, blah.... And every last one of them swore that the next straw was going to break their camel backs, and every last one of them still plays and still buys and still complains... Even after GW put out a press release saying "Sales are down, profits are up".
There is a metric sh!t tonne of D&D stuff out there and it will always be there. Maybe the print books will be hard to find at some points, but the PDFs are out there, the information will continue to exist. People will find a way to play the version of the game they enjoy...
The company buying my employer had to wait 30 days after announcing their intent until they could begin to finalize the deal so other potential buyers could top their offer... When someone throws a number at Hasbro they can't resist, they'll sell WotC and D&D like yesterdays bread - but I doubt that number has anything less than eight or nine zeros behind it...
If Hasbro is THAT evil, KickStarter might be a great place to start gathering cash to back a moral stand.
I'm in for $20.
Looking at Hasbro's financials, at the end of 2011, they were returning 35% on investment = $0.35 increase on every dollar invested.
I just went thru their 10Q (Quarterly Report) files in May 2012 and there is ZERO mention of D&D... This product is so NOT making them money that they only use the term "RPG" once in the entire report and NEVER mention Dungeons & Dragons!! Magic the Gathering is mentioned four times and is listed as a major contributer to their first quarter - they expect 60+% of their yearly revenue in the second half of their fiscal year (Christmas rush).
I think it shows one heck of a good will effort on their part to continue to produce a product that isn't worth mentioning in their quarterly report...
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Post by rickno7 on May 28, 2012 18:24:51 GMT -8
It sounds to me a bit hipster-ish when people complain about WoTC being "evil, corporate sell-outs" when they most likely use devices assembled by child/slave labour. I'm about as far away from hipster as they come, but whatever. Is morally wrong too strong a phrase? Maybe. Maybe "dick move" is closer. I just feel like I'm thinking of buying something from WOTC(which I have not since 2003). I strongly dislike their handling of 4th edition. I did not like the idea of a subscription service nor the splitting up of some core classes into later handbooks just to ensure those later books are sold. Business savvy? sure. Dick move? Definitely. Do I want to support a company that does dick moves like that. I hoping that the marketing and release schedule has been rethought just as much as the gaming in this new iteration. I do see the shifting of the blame on to Hasbro as a valid point. The people making Dungeons and Dragons might genuinely love the industry. Does that take some heat off WOTC? While Hasbro is yelling "MORE PROFIT!", I'm sure it was still WOTC staff that said, "let's toss all our previous fans and make a miniatures game based on WoW" They're also the company that does all its major firing a couple of weeks before Christmas because it looks better on end of the year reports. That comparison to Activision(DLC feature chopping for profit, firing people so they don't have to pay bonuses, subscription service for Call of Duty features that were free the edition before, etc etc) is looking pretty solid IMO. This is a board to discuss things. I thought it was a good topic that would get a lot of response. Do we have 4th Edition fans on here? What do you guys think of 5th? Do you feel betrayed? Are you going to switch to 5th? I keep saying that someone will pick up 4th the same way Pathfinder picked up 3rd, is anyone already doing that? I know 4th is locked down tighter than 3rd was, but someone can still market toward getting that crowd. Genuinely curious how the 4th Edition people feel about 5th.
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Post by greatwyrm on May 28, 2012 19:38:55 GMT -8
I like D&D. I always have. I'm pretty sure I'll like 5e, too. I don't think the product is the problem.
The problem is, the management staff is in the middle of a changing battlefield and they act like they don't know it. This isn't 1980 or 1990, where you could put D&D on anything and it would sell. People have tons of options and there are small and one-man operations that put out really good stuff and have very little barrier to entry.
The last few years watching WotC actually remind me a lot of the downfall of Kmart. For years, Kmart was the only major discount retailer. They got complacent, genuinely thinking no one could do their business better than they could. Then Sam Walton decided he didn't want to run Ben Franklin stores anymore and starts Wal-Mart. Kmart then discovers how wrong they were.
Its like they understand Paizo has been successful, but can't understand why.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on May 28, 2012 22:38:59 GMT -8
Marketing PCs to tablet users is the downfall of Hewlett Packard too. "Meg Williams" won't rescue HP. It's a corporate structure driving thought. Blind leading the blind has to be a leader otherwise there is no one to be led. WotC is full of what? and less of see!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2012 13:53:47 GMT -8
Do we have 4th Edition fans on here? What do you guys think of 5th? Do you feel betrayed? I'm a fan of 4E (can't stand 3.5 and haven't played anything earlier than that) though I don't play it all that regularly. I wouldn't say I feel betrayed or even surprised that they've shifted more towards a pre-4E style, they're trying to appeal to the core base of fans. I should note though that I don't fall into that core base, I enjoy 4E for a lot of the reasons people seem to hate it, the combat centric tactical aspects. When I play 4E it's precisely because I want a wargame with some roleplaying added on, if I want heavy RP I'll play something else. As for it being picked up by another company unfortunately I doubt that will happen but it doesn't overly bother me, I've got the entire Essentials line and don't need anything more than that. In terms of what drove 4E (and may drive future editions) I actually think WOTC deserve more credit than they've been given. At least they attempted to do something different with the franchise as opposed to bringing out an actual 3.75 ala Pathfinder. I think the only reason Paizo have successfully managed that is because they're an independent company, if it had been WOTC people would have complained that the 'new' edition wasn't different enough to justify buying. As for DDI it may not be the best of systems but again at least they've tried to innovate and acknowledge the way the internet is impacting on tabletop gaming. With regards D&DNext I don't know if I'll play it and I haven't gotten around to signing up for the playtest yet. Even if I do I doubt it'll be a main system for me simply because most of my games are non-fantasy genre and I generally prefer point buy over class based systems.
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daniel
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 217
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Post by daniel on May 29, 2012 13:58:01 GMT -8
The only thing WoTC did that pissed me of on a personal level in the whole 3.5 to 4e mess was there advertisement strategy for 4e. Ware they were basically going “3e sucks and if you play it you suck” and there was the whole “This is not your dads DnD shit” that was the only legitimate fuck reason to WoTC I had.
Now there is a LOT I don’t like about 4e but most of that is taste, it was also the case that Pathfinder just put out a better product with better quality.
But bottom line (Because I kind of like what I have seen of 5e) unless they totally fuck it up I will buy at least the core books, and if Pathfinder puts out something interesting I will likely buy that to. There is no reason I can not use both and like both
As for Hasbro, yes basically they have no fucking idea what they are doing most of the time. Now I have no clue how much of that is WoTC and how much is Hasbro actively fucking things up but I would think its more Hasbro with the idea that “DnD biggest name in the market” should = lots of $ the problem being there definition of “Lots of” and there advertisement department being comprised entirely of half trained monkeys dos not help
DnD Next… god…
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Post by ironnikki on May 30, 2012 6:27:42 GMT -8
For the past couple of years, Pathfinder has been my go to system for fantasy. After branching out and trying several other games, I've started to find that I prefer lighter, more generic rulesets. I'll definitely take a look at the new edition when it's done, and I've FINALLY managed to punch through server issues to get a copy of the playtest, but it's not likely that I'll pick it up unless I join a group that's intent on playing it. Why buy another system when I've already got several others that I'll probably enjoy playing more?
The way that WotC does things makes it very clear that they are, at the end of the day, a business. This is completely understandable, and I don't really hold it against them, but I'm more inclined to buy a game from someone who releases updates sparingly and additional content at low prices.
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Post by kaitoujuliet on May 30, 2012 9:40:34 GMT -8
Is "optional supplement status" really so bad? As long as the optional supplements are there, 4E lovers will still be able to play the game they love, and isn't that the bottom line, really?
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radzap
Apprentice Douchebag
Up the irons!
Posts: 64
Preferred Game Systems: AD&D 1st Ed.
Favorite Species of Monkey: DK
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Post by radzap on May 31, 2012 1:36:07 GMT -8
Wizards can blow a giant wang. Or they can just suck mine. For decades, the RPG has taken a back seat to the other "marketables" that go with the D&D license. You can't sell modules or player aids at the cash register of a 7-11 but you sure as hell can hawk TCG crap and mini-clix in the cashier garden at Target.
It's about branding, it always has been. The Star Wars franchise has made billions off of toys and fluffy chachkis while the revenue generated from the SW P&P RPG games couldn't even cover the Kenner CEO's expense account for Japanese hookers and sake enemas.
WotC knows they have a great license and they don't particularly give two figs about the nerds that play the P&P game because they know they are the boss of the fantasy world when it comes to brand name presence.
A typical Wizard's Market Strategy meeting goes like this:
Wizard's Tool #1: Whoa, my face is totally numb after that last bump.
Wizard's Tool #2: Hey! I just cut that line for me, A-hole! C'mon get serious here, we gotta think of something for D&D for the presentation tomorrow or we'll be looking for real jobs soon.
Wizard's Tool #1: I hear Goldman-Sachs lifted their hiring freeze.
Wizard's Tool #2: Dude seriously! We can't just re-skin the game to be WoW on a table top again! We need a new idea here or we're dead. And don't piss in the waste paper basket...
Wizard's Tool #1: Wait, I got it! Whoa, is that your jacket man, sorry I whipped around kinda quick there.
Wizard's Tool #2: Duuuude not on my Hugo Boss... you owe me for cleaning!
Wizard's Tool #1: No really, I got it! So, we solved our problem by biting a Blizzard product last time, right?? So why don't we do it again, it would be EPIC!!
Wizard's Tool #2: I think you shorted out one of the ceiling lights... ew, it's dripping. Okay so bite another Blizz product, like what? DotA, SC2 SuperStars?
Wizard's Tool #1: It's so obvious man! We're gonna bite off Diablo! No, just hear me out, it will be awesomeness! The damn nerds are always complaining about having to find someone to Dungeon Master for them. Well this game can totally be run without a DM!
Wizard's Tool #2: I'm completely high on coke here, I think your idea stinks worse than Snookie's underwear hamper. Figure that one!
Wizard's Tool #1: It's a mini's game with geomorphic tiles, indoor and outdoor! We can set them up so the tiles generate their own encounters and you can adjust them for dungeon difficulty... like clix! LOL, totally! The damn tile clicks, haha why didn't we think of this before, we'll sell millions of them!
Wizard's Tool #2: I think I'm with you now, I mean, who the hell really wants to be a DM anyways? Too much work. Oh crap, I think that's the cleaning lady at the door, put your wang back in your pants.
Wizard's Tool #1: It get's better! Every quarter we'll come out with new adventure packs that creep up the power level of all the items and the classes, so everyone is going to want to buy one of everything because it's the new hawtness!!
Wizard's Tool #2: Dude! I didn't know that you used to work for Games Workshop?! LOL
Right about this time is when my brain gets an ERROR 47 message, but you get the pic.
DM's are a small part of the market that buy a large part of the items in P&P RPG games (source materials, maps, et. al.). Players were always the bigger market to pitch to and Wizard's has been doing a great job mining their players by flooding the market with stuff for players.
The next logical step is to just get rid of the DM altogether. Maybe 6th ed. will get rid of the system completely and go to a Crossbows and Catapults type game... ooh, I'd come back for that!
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