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Post by inflatus on Dec 5, 2011 13:49:25 GMT -8
In a recent Pathfinder game the party was split within five minutes of starting. We were all at the festival (Rise of the Runelords). Each of us were mulling about together for a few minutes. We were just checking out the locals while drinking. We knew the thief would try to pick a few pockets and that was no problem. We look around and he was nowhere to be seen.
The party stayed and participated in the festivities. The thief decided to go into the town and break into homes. I rolled my eyes and said, “typical thief.” So now what does the party do while the GM has to sidebar the thief as he goes into one, two, three, four or more homes? Without being to graphic, we just sat at the table, amused ourselves and sighed passive aggressively every few minutes. I realize this sounds like a childish thing to do but for me I was new to this group and did not know anyone. After about a half an hour of thieving he deicides to head back to the festival, slowly.
In Rise of the Runelords, Goblins attack the festival and terrorize the townsfolk. The party, minus thief, jump into action and combat ensues. The thief asks, “How much does this statue I stole weigh? Can I go into this house, it looks big?” We ignore him the best we can until his questions about who is in this house and that house gets out of control. I stop and say, “Dude you are killing us!” He said, “I am not even there, how can I?”
A bit of background on the thief. He told us he has been playing since the Red Box days. I always love that quote. He has also GM’ed and played every year since. He let us know that he knows all the rules but is not a rules lawyer. All of that was fine but why split the party? Especially right at the beginning. Is there a better way to ease into the thieving? We probably would have helped if he had waited.
I know that this incident has a few issues that needed to be resolved. It is not just that thieves always seem to split the party. I wonder if the thief class or concept lends to splitting the party. I have played a few adventures with thieves that were great role players and had a firm grasp of their characters. They also split the party. Splitting the party has led to some interesting out of game stories. There is no doubt about that. If there are any thieves out there, do you split the party? Why? If you don’t, then I will let you know when I am playing my next game so you can be there.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Dec 5, 2011 13:56:59 GMT -8
Sounds like he was being a selfish dick, without realising he was being a selfish dick. I'd probably take him to one side outside of the game and ask him what was going on, and try to persuade him that his constant selfishness is ruining the game for everyone else. Judging by your explanation, I'd say it was the player's issue; if he'd been a ranger or a sorcerer, I'm sure he'd probably still have buggered off on his own.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 14:00:59 GMT -8
The game I play in has a halfling rogue who is pretty much the stereotypical sneak thief. For most of our adventures the DM keeps him from wandering off to steal.
When we hit a big town or city though we tend to do a party split / montage kind of thing where we go clockwise around the table with each person describing and role playing their actions as we wander the town. Shopping is handled this way, as it combat training, information gathering, and of course the halfling's crime spree.
Not sure if it would work for your party but an idea to field to your DM.
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Post by inflatus on Dec 5, 2011 14:05:11 GMT -8
He was a dick. I do not play in sessions he is a part of. I talked with him a bit afterwards and he said "I was just filling in to help out." I asked him how good of a job helping out he did and got no response. He pretty much stays away form me now.
I played a few more Pathfinder sessions and then convinced a few players to try GURPS. During my first adventure, he kept coming over and saying GURPS was not really a good system for these players. He is still a dick.
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Post by Stu Venable on Dec 5, 2011 14:17:21 GMT -8
I think it's the nature of the archetype.
If the guy's any kind of role-player he is going to think like his character. And in the case of a thief, that means he's got some character flaw that makes him steal and also makes him secretive. This means sneaking away, cutting purses, skimming treasure, etc.
Splitting the party and sidebarring is SOP with thieves.
From what you describe, I would say it's a failure of the GM. The GM is the person who is ultimately responsible for budgeting his time for each player.
If the GM finds himself in an uninterrupted 30-minute side bar, he needs to nip that in the bud and cut up the thief's sidebar with the rest of the parties' interaction at the festival. Presumably there are NPCs to talk to, etc.
Once the combat starts, the thief's activities need to take a back seat -- you're dealing with 6-second combat rounds, he's dealing with skill checks that can take minutes each. Give him a chance to do something once every 5 or 6 combat rounds.
If he's interrupting, the GM needs to tell him to wait his turn -- "you're still picking the lock, it's going to take you 30 more seconds, that's 5 combat rounds."
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joegun
Journeyman Douchebag
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Preferred Game Systems: Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: Just GM'ing right now.
Currently Running: Rippers Resurrected, and Savage RIFTS!
Favorite Species of Monkey: Baboon
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Post by joegun on Dec 5, 2011 15:04:55 GMT -8
I have to agree with Stu here. Whatever the intentions of the Player were. Deep down, the guys is playing a thief. Every thief I've ever played with disappears about 10 seconds after we get into town. Not a lot of "theft" to be found while we are camping out in the bushes. So I can understand why he bolts as soon as you in town. But the GM should either find a way to force him back into the mix ( perhaps that big house he is robbing is invaded by some of the goblins? ) or make him wait it out....
(This is why I never played a thief, I guess I'm to much of a team player!)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 15:35:37 GMT -8
I think it is both the Player's fault and the GM's.
The "I play a thief and so I sneak into every commoner's house." is not good RP, being a cleptomaniac is acceptable, breaking into every house you see is just stupid. Besides it is a d20 game, being an adventurer is really expensive and he would have to steal half the town's valuables to barely get enough money for a +1 weapon. I think he just want's to be the center of attention. He is being a typical case of roleplaying a bad stereotype.
On the other hand the GM could point out to him that what he is actually doing is a waste of time at best, since he would need to break into an important person's home, to get some real loot, and that would require some planning if he doesn't want to get caught. The other thing is that he wasted too much time roleplaying something entirely irrelevant and somewhat pointless. I'd tell the player: "So you want to go steal stuff? Make a couple of rolls (thievery, sneaking, whatever)." "Good, you steal 1d4 silver pieces, now back to the rest of the party." Even then the thief doesn't need to be away from the action, perhaps he gets to spot the goblins early as they attempt to sneak to attack the festival, or a wounded guard delivering a warning. If he doesn't respond and he keeps stealing, then he is a douche.
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riff
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Let me check my notes....
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Post by riff on Dec 5, 2011 21:00:25 GMT -8
I have to agree with Taronicos here, the problem was both. A good GM will pay attention to how long sidebars and asides are taking. A considerate player will not go off and hog the GM, and thus the game, on trivial stuff.
My suggestion is talk to both privately. maybe one or both will fix the problem for next time.
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Post by ironnikki on Dec 7, 2011 12:43:05 GMT -8
A player as experienced as this guy claimed to be should have known that what he was doing was ruining the game for everyone else. A good GM would have cut him off no more than 5-10 minutes into his raid. I agree with Taronicos as well; petty theft like that just isn't profitable mechanically. Now, if this character was a thief before he discovered the lucrative pursuit of adventure, I could understand the first one or two games involving petty theft, but after he gets his first 50 gold (or more!) from the bottom of a dungeon, I think most thieves would realize that 2d4 silver is not worth losing a hand for (or whatever the punishment for theft is.) P.S: riff- I used to read Sluggy daily. I'll have to pick it back up!
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Post by Stu Venable on Dec 7, 2011 13:35:38 GMT -8
I think that depends why he steals. Is it for monetary gain? Or is it a compulsion?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2011 11:37:56 GMT -8
Now, now - some thieves are just skillful blokes.
/TJ PS - Besides, every party needs a thief to keep the loot list!
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Post by Bill Roper on Dec 27, 2011 11:07:30 GMT -8
On the one occasion where I played a "thief" (not a criminal mastermind, but more of your in the trenches rogue) I appeared quite lazy to the party as I was constantly sleeping in the back of our little wagon while traveling or getting up very late in the morning and always cramming a few pieces of bread and cheese into my mouth before the events of the day too place. Why? Because I was out for a good part of the night plying my craft. My best thief play came during the time when the GM told us we were bedding down for the night. I would then pass a note to the GM with my intended adventures for the next 3-4 hours and a few rolls later, I had my results. There was minimal drag on the entire party, and if I happened into a story thread or did something that was going to take a bit longer, it was a great time for the group to take a 5 minute pee/smoke break.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2011 10:33:39 GMT -8
Sometimes I've told players who come to the table with a thief concept that I expect them to pursue a Catwoman level of thievery. Where there's a level of challenging their abilities on very difficult targets and their compulsion to take what is not theirs only applies to the ultra-rich and not the regular peasantry (depended on the campaign I was running of course).
Plus it's been cover many-a-times, but I think players, and not just the GM, need to be considerate when doing a side-bar. The best thieves I've played with kept their exploits short and often involved other players in their schemes and winnings.
Going on a bit of a tangent: one of my friends ran this DnD 3.5 game where all the players were thieves and we were tasked with various heist jobs on high profile items. It was basically a medieval Ocean's Eleven and it was epic!
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julien
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Post by julien on Dec 30, 2011 2:20:29 GMT -8
Speaking of a medieval ocean's eleven, i ran a few session of a game named Nightprowler, where every player played a criminal. They worked as a group just like in the movies but in a medieval urban setting. The equivalent of the class in this game is the specialty of your character :
no less than 32 different roles.
A great inspiration for players who want to roleplay thieves, what will you be ? the old beggar in the corner, crying for pity and keeping yes and ears open at everytime ? Is he the car burglar who can climb the walls of a rich house to accès the high unprotected windows ? Is he the one who can crack any safe anywhere in matters of seconds ?
This is how I see a thief : even if the game system doesn't really make the difference, he should be a specialist.
If the rogue character is more than just a kleptomaniac and annoying douchebag, he will earn more respect from players, and things should go better.
In a D&D 4ed campaign I ran 2 years ago, we had a thief at the table, her first reflex after each combat was to search bodies, rooms and such for gold. At first the other players laughed, then they were annoyed, then one of them had an idea, his character bought some mouse trap, and managed to get one on a defeated goblin. When the thief searched the corpse in a hurry, she got caught by the trap (no mention of any caution by the player, who failed a test to notice it). After this episode the thief was not more cautious, not really, she still jumped on any gold item she'd see, but the group as a whole laughed at it. Another time, while in an old cursed crypt, she told the others just after a combat "Oh I'll be back in a minute, I got to pee". then she went to the old sarcophagus the shaman said was a source of evil, a cursed resting place of a cursed king... She opened it, took the gold inside and... was cursed. Again everyone laughed and helped her getting uncursed.
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