tomes
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Post by tomes on Mar 16, 2018 16:15:31 GMT -8
Hey y'all (Creating a thread here for the recent Ten Candles game with cadave, Stu Venable, StrangeLikeThat, Kimi, stork). Stu Venable: I wasn't really sure where to post on One Shot Saturdays games - obviously feel free to move this post wherever. On Episode 21-10 StrangeLikeThat was talking (around the 40 minutes mark?) about how in the Ten Candles game she wasn't stressed about winning or fighting so much cause her character was already dead from the start. This didn't prevent her from playing in the spirit of winning, but it reminded me of a recent conversation with another gamer friend. I told him about this game and he was like "NOPE. I don't play games where I have no agency." We had a bit of a "discussion" around this topic, and he was mostly not convinced, but still, I had thoughts on a variant: Towards the end of the game, everyone is going to pretty much be dying left and right (final scene). That said, someone's gotta go last, and perhaps that player, instead of dying, gets to narrate the ending / do the epilogue. It could be tragic, but doesn't necessarily have to be. I think this may help with those players who just feel like participating in a foregone conclusion either isn't their jam, or has other side-effects on participation. Happy to hear peoples thoughts...?
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 16, 2018 18:34:40 GMT -8
I think people who won't play a game like this, that being the epitome of a beer and pretzels game, are just sad. If you can't get with the conceit that you'll die, because of "agency" that's just being a dick. In this game you LITERALLY roll for control of the scene to narrate it how you like. After every scene you get to set a "truth". That is way more agency than you are getting in most games. I bet that same player complains when a Paladin in his D&D game doesn't play Lawful Stupid. Not playing 10 Candles because you know you are dying, is like not playing Call of Cthulhu because you're going to lose sanity.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Mar 16, 2018 19:21:05 GMT -8
I bet that same player complains when a Paladin in his D&D game doesn't play Lawful Stupid. Not playing 10 Candles because you know you are dying, is like not playing Call of Cthulhu because you're going to lose sanity. To be fair, I have a huge amount of respect for this person and many of his opinions. And also to be fair, despite being somewhat adamant in his view, he also has respect for me and if I told him he should play it, he would definitely play in the game to see for himself. Also, the analogy with paladin is cute but he doesn't play no D&D, anymore
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 16, 2018 19:22:06 GMT -8
I bet that same player complains when a Paladin in his D&D game doesn't play Lawful Stupid. Not playing 10 Candles because you know you are dying, is like not playing Call of Cthulhu because you're going to lose sanity. To be fair, I have a huge amount of respect for this person and many of his opinions. And also to be fair, despite being somewhat adamant in his view, he also has respect for me and if I told him he should play it, he would definitely play in the game to see for himself. Also, the analogy with paladin is cute but he doesn't play no D&D, anymore I'm cute. At least that's what my mommy says.
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 17, 2018 19:52:02 GMT -8
I think people who won't play a game like this, that being the epitome of a beer and pretzels game, are just sad. If you can't get with the conceit that you'll die, because of "agency" that's just being a dick. In this game you LITERALLY roll for control of the scene to narrate it how you like. After every scene you get to set a "truth". That is way more agency than you are getting in most games. I bet that same player complains when a Paladin in his D&D game doesn't play Lawful Stupid. Not playing 10 Candles because you know you are dying, is like not playing Call of Cthulhu because you're going to lose sanity. I can't agree with this.... Some people just don't dig that style of game. And that's fine, so long as they aren't wrecking the fun for others. Now, if he's demanding that you never play this game, even if he's not there, then I am with you, that's dick behavior. But, if he's just "That's not for me, but hey, shine on you crazy diamond!" then, no... He's fine.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 17, 2018 20:06:47 GMT -8
I think people who won't play a game like this, that being the epitome of a beer and pretzels game, are just sad. If you can't get with the conceit that you'll die, because of "agency" that's just being a dick. In this game you LITERALLY roll for control of the scene to narrate it how you like. After every scene you get to set a "truth". That is way more agency than you are getting in most games. I bet that same player complains when a Paladin in his D&D game doesn't play Lawful Stupid. Not playing 10 Candles because you know you are dying, is like not playing Call of Cthulhu because you're going to lose sanity. I can't agree with this.... Some people just don't dig that style of game. And that's fine, so long as they aren't wrecking the fun for others. Now, if he's demanding that you never play this game, even if he's not there, then I am with you, that's dick behavior. But, if he's just "That's not for me, but hey, shine on you crazy diamond!" then, no... He's fine. Eh, to each their own. I just see it as childish behavior. Like the guy that went to to a football game with you because they sell beer there. And yes, I have a friend like that. He'll come to my place to watch as long as I'm not drinking. But he won't go to a public place where alcohol is served. He's weird like that. Good friend, but I see the behavior as childish. Almost like he's stomping his foot and whining because people aren't doing it his way. This feels very much the same to me. If he doesn't like narrative style games then I get it. But using the I have no agency argument in a game heavily narrated by the players just doesn't sit well with me.
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Post by ayslyn on Mar 18, 2018 3:30:57 GMT -8
I dunno. I can think of a couple of VERY excellent reasons why your friend does that. Obviously, I don't know him, so it would be rampant speculation, but... None of those reasons would ever qualify as childish.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 18, 2018 5:01:00 GMT -8
Probably just a misuse/different interpretation* of the word ‘agency’ to justify, politely, that he doesn’t like that sort of game. Like people calling that asparagus filth a vegetable when they try a force me to ‘just try it, you might like it’ - when it’s actually Satan’s snot .... in look, taste and smell. Aaron * that doesn’t mean he’s wrong in his use of the word just that he may use it within a different context/term of reference. ie: a proscribed ending *could* justifiably be understood as removing agency, whether you think that or not is irrelevant as, if that’s how he understand the term agency, then his use fits that context (with the caveat that it would be very brave person indeed that would argue that this interpretation of agency is incorrect given the definition of ‘agency’ lacks a universally agreed, approved and codified application vis-a-vis RPG’s)
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Post by StrangeLikeThat on Mar 22, 2018 11:51:44 GMT -8
Hey y'all (Creating a thread here for the recent Ten Candles game with cadave , Stu Venable , StrangeLikeThat , Kimi , stork ). Stu Venable : I wasn't really sure where to post on One Shot Saturdays games - obviously feel free to move this post wherever. On Episode 21-10 StrangeLikeThat was talking (around the 40 minutes mark?) about how in the Ten Candles game she wasn't stressed about winning or fighting so much cause her character was already dead from the start. This didn't prevent her from playing in the spirit of winning, but it reminded me of a recent conversation with another gamer friend. I told him about this game and he was like "NOPE. I don't play games where I have no agency." We had a bit of a "discussion" around this topic, and he was mostly not convinced, but still, I had thoughts on a variant: Towards the end of the game, everyone is going to pretty much be dying left and right (final scene). That said, someone's gotta go last, and perhaps that player, instead of dying, gets to narrate the ending / do the epilogue. It could be tragic, but doesn't necessarily have to be. I think this may help with those players who just feel like participating in a foregone conclusion either isn't their jam, or has other side-effects on participation. Happy to hear peoples thoughts...? It's all about setting expectations before a game starts. If a person isn't into a concept, then that is totally okay. As for 10 Candles in specific, at no time did I feel I lacked player agency anymore than I do during other RPGs. (At a certain point in any game a GM is inevitably going to give you some minor direction on character. e.g. Your character gets captured and dragged to prison, et cetera) The only place where I could say I lacked some agency was character creation, but I took the traits we passed around as a fun challenge. I was less stressed overall because I knew in the end that the game would be short and my character would die, so I could just enjoy the ride. And you're right, none of that stopped me from playing a character that wanted to "win". 10 Candles is also a very different beast from a DnD or WoD game. I would even classify it more as party game than tabletop RPG.
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mysticfedora
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Post by mysticfedora on Mar 22, 2018 11:59:53 GMT -8
In short 10 Candles is a quintessential horror game. Its entire point is to take away agency. I'd argue that the horror genre is entirely rooted in the fact that a character's agency is systematically removed. Characters that have lots of choices and power make for terrible horror movies. And if you kick ass in a horror game and don't feel the dread of eminent death or terror, you might be playing a different genre.
I would also like to see it in the reverse. How about 16 Candles. Characters in a 1980s high school working to get a date at the school dance. At the beginning no candles are lit and the GM has all but one of the dice. Every time there is a success, a candle is lit and the players get another die. By the end of the game, all candles are lit and every character gets everything they want. Because in John Hughes movies, the point is that characters have to earn their agency from the rigid conformity of teenage life.
Sounds fun too, but the real point of this is that "player agency" isn't a whip to swing around someone's head. It is a currency. Game mechanics give it and take it in order to promote a particular theme. 10 Candles does that beautifully. 16 Candles would too. Maybe I should run that at Maycon!
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tomes
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Post by tomes on Mar 22, 2018 18:27:41 GMT -8
16 Candles would too. Maybe I should run that at Maycon! Yes please!
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