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Post by Xenuite on Jun 5, 2012 17:55:05 GMT -8
I have run a couple of Savage Worlds test games for my friends to gauge their interest. They seem to enjoy it, however after years of high-powered D&D games, their mindset tends to go straight to maxxing out attributes and skills.
To facilitate more well-rounded characters, I'm considering implementing something similar to FATE's skill pyramid; to those unfamiliar, in order to have a d12 in something, one would need two skills at d10, three at d8, four at d6, and five at d4.
The first problem I see with this of course is that it would require keeping certain skills at d4. To remedy that, I was thinking of moving the pyramid "base" up at each rank. For instance, at Seasoned, d6 would become the base of the pyramid; one would no longer need to maintain more skills at d4 than at d6, but would still need more d6 skills than d8 skills. By Legendary, there would be no pyramid restrictions.
Does anyone see any problems with this I might be missing, ways it might break down?
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jun 5, 2012 22:16:17 GMT -8
I don't play FATE, but I've seen other versions of the "skill pyramid" that only require you have to have more skills at a lower level than you do at a higher level. So you wouldn't have to have one d12, two d10s, three d8s, four d6s, and five d4s. You could have a single d12 and make all the rest of your skills d4s. It's not really a pyramid, your skill spread just can't be "top heavy". I think it sounds like a decent mechanical solution to force min/maxers to spread their skills around.
There are other ways you could do it though, that probably wouldn't require any restrictions like this. One way is to just straight up tell your players that this will not be a min/maxed designed game.
What I mean is tell them that you will not craft the adventure around their skills just so they can feel like badasses. Tell them that there will be challenges they won't be able to beat if they min/max, and that a well rounded character will have a better chance of success than a hyper specialized one. And then stick to that. Like if someone takes the Bloodthirsty Hinderance or other Charisma reducing effects, make it matter. Don't let them get the benefit without the associated penalty. Have NPCs react to those Bloodthirsty PCs negatively.
The same goes for skills. When outlining the adventure, think about what skills would realistically make sense to overcome the problems you'll be throwing at the PCs. Don't change the encounters or problems simply because "the PC's don't have that skill" or "it'll be too hard for them".
It's worth noting that the character options a players choose are "flags" for the GM. When a player puts points into the Survival skill for example, they are telling you "I want to do survival related stuff with my PC". Choosing the Acrobatic Edge says "I'm giving you permission to put me into potentially dangerous situations where this will be useful". Give the players what they want to see based on the "flags" they're giving you and don't prevent them from being awesome. But at the same time, note where they didn't spend their points; those are "flags" too. As the GM, it's your job to make the character's lives interesting. The best way to do that is by presenting them with problems that force them to deal with their weaknesses.
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joegun
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Post by joegun on Jun 6, 2012 9:29:38 GMT -8
Hyvemynd nailed it with the "flags" The best way to work out minmaxing is the follow the flags. I had a couple players try and minmax, and one who took all the skills he would ever want ( most at d4 with 1 or 2 at d6. At first it was tougher for the little guy, but as they started advancing, his skill progression blew past them. And he was much more adaptable, and could use many different things to get out of situations. That was the last time those players minmaxed out a single stat.
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Post by jazzisblues on Jun 6, 2012 11:17:21 GMT -8
Interestingly I just don't sweat it when people want to minmax. Sure when we are doing the one thing they're good at they will get to stroke their little dicks and be AHHHMAAAAAAYYYYYYZIIIINNNNNGGG!!! but the rest of the time they're going to be sitting their with their dick in their hands while the rest of the party is busy doing the important stuff. They will get the picture, or not, pretty quickly that a bit more versatility might be worth a little less amazing.
Just my 2 krupplenicks,
JiB
P.S. Boy I sound caustic in that post maybe I should edit it and soften it ... nah ...
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Post by shadrack on Jun 6, 2012 11:31:40 GMT -8
Yeah, if your game lasts awhile, it'll be funny to watch them spend a whole advance on a knowledge skill. or maybe on swimming, or something like that. hehe
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joegun
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Post by joegun on Jun 6, 2012 12:52:12 GMT -8
Interestingly I just don't sweat it when people want to minmax. Sure when we are doing the one thing they're good at they will get to stroke their little dicks and be AHHHMAAAAAAYYYYYYZIIIINNNNNGGG!!! but the rest of the time they're going to be sitting their with their dick in their hands while the rest of the party is busy doing the important stuff. They will get the picture, or not, pretty quickly that a bit more versatility might be worth a little less amazing. Just my 2 krupplenicks, JiB P.S. Boy I sound caustic in that post maybe I should edit it and soften it ... nah ... Wow JIB channeling Tappy (er Happy Tappy, er Pappy) Makes sense. That is basically what I got out of the "flags" idea as well. They can minmax, but that doesn't mean that their "specific set of skills" is going to get them out of the situation
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Post by jazzisblues on Jun 6, 2012 17:50:27 GMT -8
Interestingly I just don't sweat it when people want to minmax. Sure when we are doing the one thing they're good at they will get to stroke their little dicks and be AHHHMAAAAAAYYYYYYZIIIINNNNNGGG!!! but the rest of the time they're going to be sitting their with their dick in their hands while the rest of the party is busy doing the important stuff. They will get the picture, or not, pretty quickly that a bit more versatility might be worth a little less amazing. Just my 2 krupplenicks, JiB P.S. Boy I sound caustic in that post maybe I should edit it and soften it ... nah ... Wow JIB channeling Tappy (er Happy Tappy, er Pappy) Makes sense. That is basically what I got out of the "flags" idea as well. They can minmax, but that doesn't mean that their "specific set of skills" is going to get them out of the situation Heh heh heh ... Sitting here talking with CADave about this and we both said basically, "Fuck it let them minmax just write your game so it's rounded and that alone will discourage them from minmaxing." Cheers, JiB
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jun 6, 2012 20:00:50 GMT -8
Yeah, I'll just echo what joegun, JiB, and shadrack said; don't coddle your players. That doesn't mean be a douche bag and intentionally find ways to screw them over. Well, not all the time at least. I mean, if one player is a Paladin and is super excited about his special mount, don't drop them through a portal during the first session forcing the Paladin to leave his mount behind. That's just shitty DMing.
In the Vampire game we played I made a purely social character. I mean, I had unused character points for my physical skills that I "gave back" to the GM because there was just no way I could justify my PC using them all. Even though I was entitled to. And while I really enjoyed all the scenes that let me show off how AHHHMAAAAAAYYYYYYZIIIINNNNNGGG!!! I was in social interactions, you know what? It was just as fun having to track down an NPC through a creepy ass sewer because the threat of combat was always there. I knew that's where my PC was vulnerable, and the tension in that session was just as AHHHMAAAAAAYYYYYYZIIIINNNNNGGG!!! as the ones where I was a bad ass.
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Post by Xenuite on Jun 13, 2012 14:16:01 GMT -8
Thank you all for the excellent advice.
Trust me, I don't intend to coddle them, but I also don't want to game to screech to a halt in that moment of realization that they don't have the tools they need.
They don't minmax maliciously, its just all they've known for a very long time. I think perhaps I'll implement the pyramid for initial character creation only to give them a good base of skills, and let them develop freeform from there.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jun 13, 2012 18:27:03 GMT -8
Let us know how the Skill Pyramid works out, since it is an interesting idea.
Another way to prevent min/maxing is to ask for character concepts before having your players assign numbers to their sheets. Ask them to come up with a basic framework and think about what their PCs would be good at or have knowledge in because of that background. I think the GM always has the right to ask "How did your character learn X?" and to ask for a change if the player can't justify it.
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Post by jazzisblues on Jun 14, 2012 6:09:13 GMT -8
I am intrigued to hear how this works out. Perhaps I'm spoiled by the players I've had but I don't tend to worry about this overly much.
JiB
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