clanhanna
Journeyman Douchebag
The Muffin
Posts: 221
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller, O.R.E, Mongoose Traveller
Currently Playing: Vampire: The Masquerade, Vampire: The Dark Ages, D&D 5e
Currently Running: Vampire: The Dark Ages
Favorite Species of Monkey: Peanut-buttery Rhesus
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Post by clanhanna on Jul 12, 2012 13:31:57 GMT -8
I have been running my current Dark Ages: Vampire game mostly according to the mechanics set down in the book. One of the mechanics says that extra successes on an attack roll translate to extra dice added to the pool for the damage roll.
Last session, I had a ghoul wielding a scythe attack one of the players. The ghoul rolled 6 successes (net, after the player's Dodge roll). A scythe does STR+6 dice of Lethal damage, plus the extra successes from the attack roll.
So that's STR(4) + 6 + 5 = 15 dice for damage. TN of 7. I got no successes. 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6. If it weren't for the ghoul's Potence contributing automatic damage successes, it would have been a spectacularly successful attack that inflicted no injury whatsoever.
Has anyone figured out a satisfactory solution to this problem?
One option I'm considering is that the extra successes equal automatic successes on the damage roll. The standard damage roll would still apply, but in the above example, five of those dice would be automatic levels of damage inflicted, meaning the attack would have dealt 8 levels of Lethal damage (which the player character could have then rolled to soak with her STA + Fortitude).
So, fellow W.o.Douchebags... what think you?
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Post by Stu Venable on Jul 12, 2012 14:53:35 GMT -8
Don't roll so shitty.
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clanhanna
Journeyman Douchebag
The Muffin
Posts: 221
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller, O.R.E, Mongoose Traveller
Currently Playing: Vampire: The Masquerade, Vampire: The Dark Ages, D&D 5e
Currently Running: Vampire: The Dark Ages
Favorite Species of Monkey: Peanut-buttery Rhesus
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Post by clanhanna on Jul 12, 2012 15:29:21 GMT -8
Hey, at least none of those dice came up 1s; 1s are negative successes.
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Post by Stu Venable on Jul 12, 2012 19:23:10 GMT -8
In all seriousness, could you just assume the net successes from the to-hit roll are successful hits? That way you have at least some guaranteed successes w/ damage?
I'm totally talking out my ass because I know bupkis about the Storyteller system.
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Post by HourEleven on Jul 12, 2012 21:54:35 GMT -8
I try and make those spectacular failures in to a great narrative moment. Use that to describe how close the player came to a dying, describe the feeling of the scythe cutting through their shirt. If another player is nearby, roll something for the follow through swing, maybe one player barely avoided death, but the swing wasn't meant just for them - bury it in the guy next to them (better if it's an innocent, etc. - you lived but little Timmy never stood a chance as the tip of the scythe slid across his throat.)
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Jul 13, 2012 5:56:47 GMT -8
I don't know that much about oWoD despite owning a hardback copy of Vampire: Dark Ages. Could you perhaps adapt the combat system from nWoD for use in your Dark Ages game? For those that know bupkis about the system , in nWoD the attacker forms a dice pool based on Stat + Combat Skill + Weapon Damage Rating and then subtracts dice based on factors such as range and the target's defenses. Any successes rolled translate directly into damage, either bashing, lethal, or aggravated (which is super god damn nasty). For example, a character with Strength 3 and Weaponry 2, wielding a sword rated at 3 Lethal Damage has a dice pool of 8 when attacking. Their opponent has a Dexterity of 3 and is wearing chainmail rated at 2 Armor, but that inflicts a -2 penalty to Defense because of it's encumbrance. The total Defense of the opponent is 3. So if the swordsman attacks, they'll roll a total of 5 dice (8-3). Any dice that come up as a success (7+) will result in 1 point of Lethal damage to the target. I really like this system because it combines attack, damage, and defense all into a single roll to save time. But there are still things that players can do to affect the roll. Dodging in lieu of an attack doubles your Defense rating for the turn, Aiming for turn adds dice to your attack pool, being behind cover subtracts from the attackers pool, etc. Plus, just like GURPS, nWoD is pretty damn lethal. When someone shoots at you you don't get to subtract your Dexterity based Defense from ther roll; only the rating of your armor applies because you can't dodge bullets (well, not unless you're a supernaturally fast vampire or something). So someone with Dexterity 3 and a 1 Armor Kevlar vest would apply a -4 penalty to any attacker coming at them with a Brawl or Weaponry based-attack. But that same guy would only apply a -2 penalty to the attacker's dice pool if someone was shooting at them (Kevlar has a 2 Armor rating against firearm attacks). Your average human only has 7 Health in nWoD, so even an average guy with a gun can mess you up. The best defense against firearms is just to keep your head down and get the fuck out of there.
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Post by ironnikki on Jul 13, 2012 7:21:59 GMT -8
Like hyvemynd, I'm unfamiliar with the old WoD rules, but from what you've said, I think that I understand how this particular instance of combat works.
A dice pool of 15 dice is freakin' massive, especially when the TN is only 7. Rolling 15 dice, and coming up with nothing at all higher than a six is pretty unlikely. The combat narrative that follows should be just as unlikely: the scythe is swung towards the target's neck, humming as it slices through the air, but the ghoul steps into a small divot and misses by inches, or it's stung by a wasp, or the target's necklace manages to get tangled up and deflect the blow, etc.
I know it kind of feels like bad storytelling, but a spectacularly unlikely roll deserves a spectacularly unlikely outcome. Now, if this kind of thing is happening often, maybe the mechanics need a little house ruling. Directly adding extra successes from the attack roll to the damage roll sounds like it would make an already relatively deadly combat system even deadlier, so I might be wary with that. That sounds like a great idea to up the stakes against a particularly powerful enemy, though!
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julien
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 49
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Post by julien on Jul 13, 2012 7:55:42 GMT -8
In my campaigns I use the following rule : with 5 successes you add 1 die to damage with regular weapons. But with firearms, you add all successes just like you did.
I can't remember in which version of the game i picked up this, but i works well (especially for my 1500's mage campaign where guns begin to appear...).
As Hour11 does I usually narrate such damage failures, bringing luck or drama in. The armor has played its role or something like that.
And you don't talk here about the soak roll...
the transformation of "roll to hit + roll to damage + roll to soak" to the one roll mechanic in the new wod is one of the rules I prefer.
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clanhanna
Journeyman Douchebag
The Muffin
Posts: 221
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller, O.R.E, Mongoose Traveller
Currently Playing: Vampire: The Masquerade, Vampire: The Dark Ages, D&D 5e
Currently Running: Vampire: The Dark Ages
Favorite Species of Monkey: Peanut-buttery Rhesus
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Post by clanhanna on Jul 14, 2012 9:16:38 GMT -8
julien: I will admit that the four-roll mechanic that OWoD uses (attack, defense, damage, soak) is cumbersome, especially once Celerity kicks in (adding extra actions in a round). But at deadly as the system CAN be (there are only 7 health levels, and while those do NOT directly translate to HP, even less so than wounds in Savage Worlds), I feel there should be opportunities for a supernatural creature, such as a vampire, to survive what would normally kill a human. HyveMynd: I really should just buy at least the new World of Darkness book, and look at the system mechanics it uses, especially since I have the transition pdf White Wolf put out on how to use OWoD fluff and the NWoD mechanics.
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Jul 14, 2012 22:50:00 GMT -8
The nWoD was my introduction to White Wolf games. We played a Vampire: the Requiem game a few years back and it was awesome. The way that social interaction and mechanics work in the nWoD really shaped how I look at RPGs now.
As you said clanhanna, four rolls to resolve a single attack is fairly clunky. In both nWoD and Ubiquity (which both use dice pools) everything's been condensed down to a single roll. With nWoD the target's Defense subtracts dice from your attack pool, while with Ubiquity any successes over the target's Defense inflicts damage.
I think the nWoD just made things easier for everyone involved. Combat resolution is a single roll, and success is always 7+ regardless of what you're trying to do. When I went back and read the Vampire: Dark Ages book in preparation for a game that never happened, I saw that the target number for success changed based on how easy/difficult the task was. Fuck that. Just always leave it at 7+ and have the quantity of successes determine how well the character succeeds or fails.
And as far as bad rolls go, in nWoD you only Stork it big time if you get no successes and also roll one or more 1's.
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1d4cast_James
Apprentice Douchebag
Podcaster
Posts: 90
Preferred Game Systems: GUMSHOE, Fate, Cortex Plus, Dread, Mythender, Savage Worlds, L5R, and Shadowrun
Currently Playing: Whatever I can get into
Currently Running: V20 inspired by Mote of Sin
Favorite Species of Monkey: Jacker Monkey????
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Post by 1d4cast_James on Jul 26, 2012 9:34:48 GMT -8
I am getting ready to run a Vampire 20th Edition campaign for a few of my friends. I have played both oWoD and nWoD and I have to say that I love the nWoD rule set. I wanted to run v20 with the nWoD rule set but keep all Displines the same, so I tried to go through the translation document, but it doesn't do exactly what I want. Sure they tell you what to change each discipline to, but there is just too much to alter elsewhere to keep any of the v20 rules intact . The Translation Guide is pretty much and all or nothing kind of thing.
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Post by HourEleven on Jul 26, 2012 13:07:16 GMT -8
That is an accurate read of it. It doesn't exactly give you the ability to convert here and there - it just moves all the old fluff into the revamped system.
If I were you, I'd ask myself (and my players) how much does balance and coherency matter for THIS campaign.
Partially converting it can leave the whole thing out of wack, but if your story can handle it... Who says anything relating to supernatural beings needs to be balanced?
I find the rules in either WoD so darn fudgable that most can go right out the window in a great moment of role play.
But every group is different, I wouldn't make decision lightly.
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1d4cast_James
Apprentice Douchebag
Podcaster
Posts: 90
Preferred Game Systems: GUMSHOE, Fate, Cortex Plus, Dread, Mythender, Savage Worlds, L5R, and Shadowrun
Currently Playing: Whatever I can get into
Currently Running: V20 inspired by Mote of Sin
Favorite Species of Monkey: Jacker Monkey????
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Post by 1d4cast_James on Jul 26, 2012 14:53:21 GMT -8
Oh yeah, I've decided to just use the rules in the V20 book which are a little more revised than the revised 3rd edition. It works enough for me. Most of my players are new to WoD and I really don't want to confuse them too much. You are right though, roleplaying is more important and rules should be fudged when they get in the way.
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