D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 21, 2012 16:22:17 GMT -8
So I am now several weeks into prepping my Awakening of the Desert King campaign with my old Indiana gaming crew that we play using Fantasy Grounds, Skype and Obsidian Portal. www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/the-awakening-of-the-desert-kingAnd as I attempt to familiarize myself with various rules after mostly playing gritty Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay v1-3 I find myself cringing time and again at how so many of my Obstackels I planned on putting in front of my party are woooshed away by various low level spells/feats. My current big grrrrrr...is how the fuck do you make a desert environment challenging and scary to the PC's (the environment mind you always plays a big roll in my Warhammer games) when the motherfucking create water spell is 0 level!! And they can do that shit all day loooongggg! Why would there even be deserts at all anyway then ? Just take the local clergy go out and hire em out as lawnsprinklers for a few weeks. Don't get me wrong I really have a turgid fan boy penis for Pathfinder. They have made a great product. But some of this "making the low level spell casters 5 min work day obsolete by always having something to do" is starting to feel like...well sand in my vah-ji-nuh. Anybody else found ways to keep this shit manageable ?
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Post by Forresst on Oct 21, 2012 18:07:48 GMT -8
You could always just... disallow the use of the create water. I mean, you're right. It's a freaking desert. Maybe it just plain ol' don't work. Maybe it's extremely limited since the desert king put a curse on the lands making water hard to come by by any means, mundane or magical.
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Post by uselesstriviaman on Oct 21, 2012 20:15:42 GMT -8
Arrange for the cleric to be eaten by an Arrakian Sand Worm. No more cleric, no more free water.
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Post by rickno7 on Oct 21, 2012 21:30:16 GMT -8
Not exclusive to Pathfinder... but in my D&D games where I wanted environment to be taken into account, I always told my players that the spell effects are in "perfect" conditions. Perhaps a warm temperate climate, with a sunny day or some such. Environment will affect things. Almost any game will put a penalty when traveling over desert, or other harsh climates, I say it counts for magic as well.
Just a few points to make though:
1: make sure you tell your players BEFORE this happens, they should know stuff like this before making a character
2: make sure there are benefits given by the environment to certain spells as well. Jungles might add bonuses to plant based spells. Tundras not only nerf fire spells, but they enchance cold ones. Stuff like that. That way the players don't see it as an automatic "F-U" from the GM.
I'm having minor flashbacks here, so I'm sure this from a sourcebook or even a core rule book somewhere.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Oct 21, 2012 22:20:09 GMT -8
Arrange for the cleric to be eaten by an Arrakian Sand Worm. No more cleric, no more free water. That's kind of what I was thinking. If you're traveling through a desert in a fantasy setting, why not have big bad desert beasties that are attracted by the smell of water? Like burrowing sand sharks, or Arrakian Sand Worms? Something that the PCs do not want to ever meet up with. Then the problem becomes not the availability of water, but how to transport it safely. This'd allow you to reward the players for creative thinking while still putting a lot of pressure on them. rickno7 has good ideas too. Dunno how magic works in your setting, D.T. Pints, but you could modify an idea from The Wheel of Time series. In that world there are five types of magic (called strands); earth, fire, water, air, and spirit. Spells are created by "weaving" the different types of strands together in varying amounts. Chucking a fireball requires only a weave of fire strands, an ice attack might be water with a little bit of air woven in, etc. It's kind of like the "element bending" from Avatar: the Last Airbender with the addition of "spirit". The point is, it's in-world justification for rickno7's great idea of "it's harder to cast Create Water in a desert". The reason there's a desert there in the first place is because the area is severely lacking in "water magical energy". Just like being unable to build something without tools and materials, you can't cast spells if there isn't enough of the proper "magic element" around.
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Post by jazzisblues on Oct 22, 2012 6:34:05 GMT -8
Consider a fundamental concept of physics: It is impossible to create or destroy matter. You can move it you can change its state but you can't create it or destroy it.
With that as a given then a spell like, Create Water is really more shorthand for saying, "Spiffy spell to draw water out of the air and put it into this bucket so I can drink it."
If there's no ambient moisture to work with, the spell simply doesn't function. You don't even have to explain it except to maybe say, "It's a desert, there is no water."
Now that said, you might end up with inventive players who will try to work around that. But I would worry about that when the time came up.
Cheers,
JiB
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 22, 2012 10:48:42 GMT -8
Great advice all. I wish they had forums like these when I was considering what to major in at college. Psst...pre-med sucks ass and is full of vindictive, nihilistic, greedy, over-achievers and would make a fantastic batch of super villains; bad news is most of them are now practicing medicine. But I diiiigresssss....
At first I thought maybe a bit douchey to go with the Arrakian sand worm idea; but after thinking about how well Herbert explained their existence I might just go with that. I was already trying to figure a way to reskin the giant worms and in a profound shower moment (in a not laying on of hands sort of moment) my worms are WYRMS...
There's an underlying element of demon possession going on in the campaign as The World Below attempts to usurp the PC's world. In the distant past the demons attempted to possess the mightiest dragons in the world and drove most of them mind blasting insane. So, now in the deep reaches of the desert are Great Blue Wyrms with bouts of insanity driven catatonia and simpleton rage. And just maybe they like to burrow and really hate it when their burrowing sand gets wet...
All these things are being foreshadowed now and as I look at the zero level create water spell I think I will have it function as a level 2 spell in the desert (using Jib's idea about the natural availability of water) but the water will be permanent. Also, I think as a reciprocal bonus to the loss of this 0 level spell I will make the 2nd level spell Death Knell available as an orison as long as they are water based life forms. A nod to Herbert once again, "reclaim their water".
This has been a huge help crew. I agree totally with rickno7 about springing house rules on players. I want us all to be in agreement. I never change a rule during a session. I utilize obisidian portal to send PM's to players about the potential rule changes and make sure they understand my thinking. Like my earlier thread about using critical effects in the negatives I think Pathfinder can at times feel a bit too shiny for me to keep a connection to the world and characters. When a character is dying (why are they dying ?) chest wound, lost hand...When a desert is a wasteland, why is it a wasteland ?
Over on Paizo's forums a similar thread existed and there appeared to be a fairly adamant rules as written approach. Whereas I really appreciate the overall sentiment on HJ's that the GM with the players is making the game happen using a rules system that they like. Shit...did I just stumble into that GM is system wasteland...:-D.
Finally, as a GM who is pretty new to Pathfinder (less than a year) but really familiar with 3.5. What are the major red flags I should be thinking about when further creating this campaign ? I heard Tyler mention on an episode "if you aren't too concerned with game balance Pathfinder is fine". I know they made the druid less brutally powerful in PF but what other things have GM's run into ?
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Post by ironnikki on Oct 27, 2012 19:31:50 GMT -8
Well, what level are your PCs, and how far do you think they will progress? If you're familiar with 3.5, you probably already know that casters tend to suck at low levels, while fighters dominate, then there's a reversal at high levels. This trend also exists in Pathfinder: if your characters are going to be entering end-game levels, anyone who isn't an arcane caster may find themselves kind of forgotten in combat. A wizard armed with several spells that either kill or make irrelevant the target on a failed save can make it difficult to design hard combats. That's not as much of an issue if you're not going into that level range, though. Divine casters are quite strong at all level ranges, and monks are, unfortunately, still kind of forgotten about.
Also, just a note from experience: summoners, particularly those with the synthesist option (or whichever one lets them fuse with their eidolon) can dish out massive amounts of damage while being quite difficult to hit. Banish tends to work nicely on them :-)
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 28, 2012 13:03:37 GMT -8
I know it's really old and might be hard to get hold of but the original AD&D 1e Wilderness Survival Guide was an excellent source book for appreciating the dangers and hazards of adventuring in extreme climates unprepared. I'm sure most of the guidelines could be easily adapted to pathfinder as they are more informative rather than purely mechanistic . . . PS: coming from a country with scarce water and loads of desert - it's brutal to the prepared and fatal to the unprepared. Having water isn't the only problem . . . electrolytes have to be considered because you sweat out a shit ton and confusion/disorientation can quickly set in (which I believe would screw up spell use )
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 16:05:45 GMT -8
It could be as simple as your players don't find the mechanics of how to survive in an unforgiving desert environment fun or engaging. There are a lot of suggestions about how to remove their agency in the face of this hazard, but why do it unless it's fun for the players? I've had sunstroke and heat exhaustion in real life. Roleplaying that in my fantasy escapism doesn't sound fun.
My advice isn't to nerf the character's abilities. They have free access to water. Sure. Thirst is the least interesting hazard to deal with. There are still sandstorms, poisonous monsters, a mysterious oasis, elemental spirits, desert people who'd love to have access to the magical water man, just the raw desert heat of the day and chill of the night, diseases, etc. Don't worry about trying to take away their water. Screw the water. Focus on the more interesting hazards.
Heck, give them moral choices. They find a man dying of thirst in the sand. They can easily nurse him back to health, but what then? Do they take him back to civilization and delay their own quest, take him with them, or leave him to try to make his own way back, possibly dying in the process. Why's the guy even out there? Is he an escaped slave, a noble drug out into the desert to die, a disguised monster, a wealthy merchant who was robbed by his caravan guards... what?
As to the larger meta concern of why there are deserts in a world with create water... it's because the gods/dragons/powers that be want it that way. The land was poisoned as a result of blood spilled during a god war. A powerful evil artifact is entombed in the desert's heart. Who knows? It's a fantasy world. Unless the players decide to reclaim the desert, 1 Create Water at a time, it doesn't really matter.
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 29, 2012 5:15:26 GMT -8
But the hazards of extreme climate survival can be good sources of role playing. Yeah your characters can pummel the shit outta creatures but when the challenge is mother nature herself!! In Oz we grow up learning about our great explorers - and thr hazards they overcame make them the figures of our emerging legends (along with Ned Kelly and other colourful figures). Interestingly most of our heroes tended to die in the wilderness they were trying to tame - a trend towards the glorious celebration of failures. Then there were the truly inspired who thought differently - eg the story behind the reason we have camels in Oz. The struggle to survive and see what was on the otherside led to adopting new patterns which then become part of our contemporary culture. The adventure was as much a part of the journey as it was the end result
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 29, 2012 10:29:32 GMT -8
Once again I truly appreciate all of the advice. I am currently of the opinion that for now the desert will be an extremely daunting environment. I find the Orisons and cantrips a great addition to the low level spellcaster. I also agree that having to constantly worry about very mundane aspects of life to get tedious. But, I also want to feel that the world is in fact not always a "paradise" where things are always hospitable and easy going. Deserts have this incredibly lonely and vast feeling to them. Their major barrier to settlement and reclamation is the absence of water. By having a constant source of water available in the world for 1st level clerics/druids the desert loses some of the menace I want it to convey. Certainly there will be sandstorms, giant sand wyrms ;D, bandits, dune covered ruins, etc. But at least for the next few levels 3-5 ? there will be moments of "water...water...". Then when they reach the Emerald Oasis their will be a genuine reason for their to be much rejoicing! That's just my campaign. I want there to be as much of a visceral connection to the world as possible. They are currently beat up, hungry, thirst (having just narrowly escaped public execution), outside the protective confines of the city, without food and water; then the fuckin zombies show up...Then when Pathfinder's heroic moments come they are those "wow! we are fuckin HEROES!"
Next, WTF moment is creating a "very special Halloween session" with a minor zombie apocalypse and my cleric uses the hide from undead spell...and yet another "shit...there goes that scary encounter."
We shall see. Their having fun so far, but getting beat over the head with the mundane bullshit stick might get tiring.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 29, 2012 10:40:51 GMT -8
I know it's really old and might be hard to get hold of but the original AD&D 1e Wilderness Survival Guide was an excellent source book for appreciating the dangers and hazards of adventuring in extreme climates unprepared. I'm sure most of the guidelines could be easily adapted to pathfinder as they are more informative rather than purely mechanistic . . . PS: coming from a country with scarce water and loads of desert - it's brutal to the prepared and fatal to the unprepared. Having water isn't the only problem . . . electrolytes have to be considered because you sweat out a shit ton and confusion/disorientation can quickly set in (which I believe would screw up spell use ) Ahoy again, I in fact do have a copy of this. My plan and general gaming style is to not let the environment become a number crunching affair as the Wilderness Guide can at times appear. But I do want there to be a general flavor of the Great Wastes where sand stretches for miles, winds blow unchecked and it is SO FUCKING QUIET...But, yeah definitely want the desert to be broiling hot in the day, freezing at night, sunburn, overheated metal armor, sand getting in your drawers, eyes. Scarce food, scarcer water. Nothing brings a party together better than resource scarcity. Nothing will cause more interesting conflict than the simple moment of tipping out the last few drops of precious water in front of the rest of a dehydrated and sun burnt party. I'll let y'all know how it goes. Some folks play fantasy games to utterly escape from every aspect of the mundane real world. Others want a total chit counting, iron ration using, encumbrance accounting that strives to simulate real world as closely as possible. I float somewhere in the middle of that continuum. Being a mariner up here in Alaska; a very intense reminder of surviving our boat going down at sea is having enough water. Water, water everywhere but nary a drop to drink. I think the "immersion" aspect of RPGs to be the main reason I play them. There is a very tangible "brain shift" that happens for me only in roleplaying games. When suddenly I see the characters, the environment, the action very clearly in my minds eye. The more moments that I can connect with various aspects of the game the more immersed I become. I know what thirst feels like, hunger, exhaustion (king crabbing is fucking exhausting), fear, anger. Finding that common ground with my players is my goal and that common ground is where the truly immersion filled collaborative story telling takes place. Shit...I do ramble on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 19:03:36 GMT -8
Adding to JiB's idea say that the Create Water spell works by pulling water out of the environment, that includes living things. So if you they are in a truly dry place it will pull it from the nearest source, them. Every time they cast it in a spot that is truly lacking in water or vegetation deduct HP. They'll learn quickly not to abuse it or they'll die.
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Post by jazzisblues on Oct 31, 2012 11:29:22 GMT -8
Adding to JiB's idea say that the Create Water spell works by pulling water out of the environment, that includes living things. So if you they are in a truly dry place it will pull it from the nearest source, them. Every time they cast it in a spot that is truly lacking in water or vegetation deduct HP. They'll learn quickly not to abuse it or they'll die. That was exactly the next step of the point I was making. JiB
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