D.T. Pints
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JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on May 3, 2013 18:12:10 GMT -8
It's a hobby. It's a pastime. It's a game. Don't get all locked up in what you *should* do. Don't let the rules bog you down. Go with your gut when you don't know -- as long as things move along, and the players are having fun, it's all good. WHAT!?? Game !??! Tom Hanks says no sir! And I ALWAYS agree with Tom... Me and Tom are taking our lanterns and going...Later.
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jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
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Posts: 218
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Post by jfever on May 3, 2013 20:10:14 GMT -8
wow. This got really derailed. Interesting, but derailed. Still .. .. . . . I'll bite, and try to bring this back together a bit.. . These guys and girls playing the game on the AP seemed to enjoy themselves, but lets be real here. These people were probably being compensated in some capacity to be there, so they HAD to enjoy it. With that said, there are probably other people that will play the Mines of Madness and laugh and have fun. . . . . .but a game like that is more Video Game than RPG. You die over and over and over, but you're still going to finish the game eventually. Then when you do . . . . . . . . . . .then what? Hope that there is another game out there that is equally as fun? And, as any video gamer knows, finding another good game can sometimes take a while. This is where RPG's separate themselves. Your great game can go on for years, because a table top RPG can be manipulated by the players, which equates to never ending possibilities. what the fuck was WotC thinking by making this AP?The Mines of Madness was designed as a con game. And, as Tappy so astutely said, con games are like the threesomes of RPGs. They aren't real sex, but they can still be a lot of fun. Who gives a shit if they were having fun or not? I don't understand why Wizards, a part of a publicly traded company, chooses to advertise a version of their game that is the least replayable?!??!?!? Isn't the income potential of an table top RPG based on the fact that you can play over and over and forever which makes you buy more books??? Also, on a personal note, I don't appreciate Wizards taking 3.5, which was great in it's imperfection, and ass raping it into the perfect, shiny, player power heavy 5ed. They have turned what once was cool and dangerous into a shiny, fluffy pillow of imperviousness. The players are EXTREMELY difficult to kill in 4.0 and it's even worse in 5.0. This removes danger and high stakes from the game, which turns it into a table top version of a video game. It's the slow degradation of WotC controlled Dungeons and Dragons that makes me sad, and their focus on removing danger and increasing PC power that has convinced me to not purchase 5.0. I can't wait for Jacker Con so I can play a fucking GURPS game FINALLY
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Post by Stu Venable on May 3, 2013 22:10:03 GMT -8
The previous PVP AP was hugely popular. I'm sure their hope is that this would be popular too.
Too many people buy into the idea that there's no such thing as bad PR (which is horrifically wrong).
My guess is the guys at WotC are elbows deep in a production cycle, and they're being pressured to ship. I don't know what their intended ship date is for 5e, but I can bet someone told them it better be before such-and-such fiscal year end.
They have a lot of stuff to create. They're playtesting rules, but there's a ton of other material that has to be produced. The entirety of the game books text, artwork, etc.
I'd guess they're not even thinking about anything but that deadline.
"Bring the PVP guys in again, it was a big hit last time. They'll do it again." And that was the end of it.
They're probably so rushed/panicked, that they aren't even taking the time to find out if the AP is listenable or not.
There's someone from Hasbro calling them regularly, saying, "So you'll have this shipped by such-and-such a date right? We need new product sales to happen in the fiscal year."
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Post by ayslyn on May 3, 2013 22:44:34 GMT -8
Actually, I think that the assumption that the WotC podcast is a means to get new players into the hobby is the big mistake here. No one is going to just stumble onto that podcast. It's for the people already playing. So railing that the AP is a bad example to bring people into the hobby is silly. It was never meant for that. It's meant for those people that will get the in joke that the Mines represents.
Do you rail at the Ferrari dealer that their car can't accommodate a family of six?
The cards used in the AP are not (at least currently) a part of 5e at all. They are specific to this one module (and more specifically, to the way two people run it). So, again, arguing that the cards prove 5e is horrible is silly.
You don't like 5e... Great. You don't like the Mines of Madness... Great.
Arguing that the later proves the lack of quality in the former is a fallacy at best.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on May 4, 2013 5:01:06 GMT -8
My apologies to jfever but I am going to answer Stu…. It's interesting, I think at least with DnD4e, WotC *doesn't* put a lot of pressure on the DM. It's the old-school games, where the DM has to make stuff up on the fly, where it's rulings over rules, that really applies the pressure on the DM. New ones in particular. Having run a bit of 4E, I think a new DM could easily learn the ropes. I would almost say 1E and the OSR clones would be for a more "advanced" DM. The rules aren't as inclusive as many more modern iterations. I disagree. There is freedom to unshackling oneself from a livery of published expectations (be it setting, splatbooks, core books, or the latest tip from a hobby journal) to be your own GM in AD&D 1e. There are discussions here about such things (esp. setting canon) and the general consensus concludes that it is the GM’s call/world or best to homebrew it But, I can also see your point, Stu, as I recall the principle Benjamin Franklin articulated in Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1738: Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power. This quote, which I guess more of us are familiar in the derivitaive “ Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither,” can be applied to understanding that an increased pressure (regardless to which games, iterations, or editions we choose to reference) constantly rests on a GM's shoulders to keep his libery/power. If a DM’s liberty (his “power”) is purchased from a 4e book, the vast opportunity exists for tabletop trouble (more so between strangers rather than between persons who respect each other) because rules lawyers will line up to usurp the DM into impotence. I also contend that building games with little thought behind them because it is so easy to balance everything stunts a GM’s development. It’s akin to a calculator in math class providing the answers rather than learning the mathematical formula and showing the work – IF you’re going to be a mathematician rather than a literature major where such a consideration is irrelevant. Likewise to mathematicians, not everyone should be a GM but everyone should have the opportunity to try it; fail or succeed; and grow from the experience. AD&D 1e DMG, Page 7: Preface What follows herein is strictly for the eyes of you, the campaign referee. As the creator and ultimate authority in your respective game, this work is written as one Dungeon Master equal to another. But these lines in the next section are important too: AD&D 1e DMG, Page 9: Introduction Know the game systems, and you will know how and when to take upon yourself the ultimate power. To become the final arbiter, rather than the interpreter of the rules, can be a difficult and demanding task, and it cannot be undertaken lightly, for your players expect to play this game, not one made up on the spot. By the same token, they are playing the game the way you, their DM, imagines and creates it. Remembering that the game is greater than its parts, and knowing all of the parts, you will have overcome the greater part of the challenge of being a referee. Being a true DM requires cleverness and imagination which no set of rules books can bestow. Juxtapose that with your similar wisdom, bought from years of playing experience: It's a hobby. It's a pastime. It's a game. Don't get all locked up in what you *should* do. Don't let the rules bog you down. Go with your gut when you don't know. Here is the thing. Which message is actually more welcoming to a newbie: do it right or do it your way? What makes a better GM? A book read by the person or the experience of the person? The AD&D 1e Guide makes a GM's responsibility clear: bring yourself to the game. I am saying that there is no other way to earn the respect of players. At best, the training wheels of 4e might delay a GM's development. At worst, such helicopter parenting could stunt the player into a locked mindset. So I can see your point and appreciate its logic but both Benjamin Franklin and I disagree with it. All that said, I believe role-playing (be it in first, second or third person) should be the predominant central mechanic in RPGs; and appealing to player skill engrossment is more comfortable to new-to-the-hobby people than to some hobby enthusiasts. Having gaps in rules creates the breeding ground for a culture of role-playing committed to social interaction between all players, which is more inline with role-playing than the overt mechanical flippery of “dice rolling story” that has people pretending to be real estate tycoons but playing a board game. I appreciate the action of a Gather Information where a player never opens their mouth and Knowledge Checks without requiring a player to be mentally engaged, much the same as I appreciate people having a conversation with me while they’re talking on their telephone or who sit around the tabletop playing Angry Birds on their iPad. So that is where my bias comes from: my system (**CENSORED**) regardless of the actual rulebook. I am saying the people come first and if some people cannot handle that, regardless of what it says in any rulebook, then they will not play in my game. Part of being a GM is learning to get along with people (who are more than numbers as are their characters’ more than their ability scores). I think this learning to get along is a historical footnote to the “Game for Geek Society” label associated to RPGs. You know -- "If you're having fun, you're doing it right" might just be synonymous with "**CENSORED**" **CENSORED** only correlates to “if you’re having fun, you’re doing it right” if we assume the GM is not a Douche Bag. I make no such assumption in **CENSORED**. While I hope for the best, I anticipate Douche Bags may be the system. So **CENSORED** is my articulation of the people over system I equate with role-playing games. Now getting back to jfever’s righteous indignation, he does not report a respect for people/players in the AP. So **CENSORED** results in a Douchey system. I am sure this sort of fun exists. Of course, how YOU choose to DM the Mines of Madness (**CENSORED**) will vary according to your mileage, as it should. In which case, WotC did have a choice and they chose their GM unwisely. And let me resoundingly agree with this: Too many people buy into the idea that there's no such thing as bad PR (which is horrifically wrong).
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Post by malifer on May 4, 2013 5:02:40 GMT -8
So the latest playtest packet fixed a couple of problems I had with 5e and I saw the MoM AP and it had Scott Kurtz.
I liked the PVP/PA podcasts. So I thought excellent...
I haven't been able to finish the 3rd episode. It's so terrible and for me more aggravating than the "In Defense of the Munchkin" podcast episode.
What really irks me about the 'cast is most of the players have never played before.
I can't figure out if Wotc is trying to target the old school gamer that likes Dungeon Crawl Classics type game or if they just don't give a shit anymore and want to promote their board games.
I assumed the card mechanic was to promote their still available Fortune cards?
My problem is with this DM and not 5e. Like I said I think the latest packet is an improvement.
I really wanted to see the monk in action too...
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Post by ayslyn on May 4, 2013 7:06:44 GMT -8
"I assumed the card mechanic was to promote their still available Fortune cards?"
Nope. It was just something that Scott and Chris Perkins came up with the change things up at the tables at PAX (east? or Reg?). Chris talks about it in the bonus 'cast they released after the third episode.
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jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
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Posts: 218
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Post by jfever on May 4, 2013 7:41:26 GMT -8
Actually, I think that the assumption that the WotC podcast is a means to get new players into the hobby is the big mistake here. No one is going to just stumble onto that podcast. It's for the people already playing. So railing that the AP is a bad example to bring people into the hobby is silly. It was never meant for that. It's meant for those people that will get the in joke that the Mines represents. Do you rail at the Ferrari dealer that their car can't accommodate a family of six? The cards used in the AP are not (at least currently) a part of 5e at all. They are specific to this one module (and more specifically, to the way two people run it). So, again, arguing that the cards prove 5e is horrible is silly. You don't like 5e... Great. You don't like the Mines of Madness... Great. Arguing that the later proves the lack of quality in the former is a fallacy at best. 1. Assumption? Then why are most of the players new? Also, WotC has a track record of trying to bring in a new breed of player with every edition by changing the rules significantly. So far they appealed to the WoW crowd with 4E (new table top gamers mostly) and ALL PEOPLE (a truly silly notion) with 5E, including those that may have left D&D. While I will not deny that there is an appeal to the experienced gamers in this AP, to deny that this is not an appeal at all to new gamers is ignorant. 2. No. I do not rail against Ferrari dealers for not having family cars because it is well known that Ferrari's are not for families. Are you trying to argue that D&D is not for new gamers with this example? (Ferrari's to 5E, as Families is to Gamers.) If you aren't, then I don't know how this example applies. If you're comparing this AP to a Ferrari dealer, then that doesn't make sense. This AP would be more comparable to a Ferrari advertisement, as an advertisement is not an actual product or physical salesperson. As I wasn't railing against false advertisement, then I still don't know what that analogy is for. Honestly. I'm not being facetious or passive aggressive. I seriously have no idea what this analogy was supposed to communicate. 3. WotC introduced collectible cards in 4E. Before the system comes out, they are already incorporating collectible cards in 5E. Also, the one AP they choose to put on their podfeed has fucking collectible cards. Even with your previously stated appeal to experienced gamers, this is still an advertisement to whoever listens. They are advertising those random, collectible cards in some capacity. Once again, to deny that cards will be a part of 5E based on past evidence is ignorant. Hell, even Blizzard has given into the collectible card game bug recently. WotC is gonna make cash at every turn with D&D, or else ditch it. Collectible cards are a part of that income at every turn. And collectible cards are just another way to give ultimate, god powers to the players, which removes danger, which decreases the emotional stake in characters, which makes the game not appeal to role players, which then only leaves power gaming munchkins. 4. With all that I've posted this might be hard to believe, but I want 5E to be awesome. I want that so much. But the evidence I've experienced by running 5E games, reading the material that's come out, and listening to this AP has convinced me to dislike 5E. Yes, listening to an AP that WotC CHOSE to put on their podfeed has convinced me that 5E is not going to be good. No company puts together an advertisement to just put one together. The point is to show the best version of their product possible in the best light to convince you to purchase their product. If this AP is the best, most representational version of 5E that WotC can slap together, then I am not impressed and will not purchase their product. All of that to say, being convinced that 5E is not good because of an advertisement minded AP that WotC chose to put on their feed is NOT a fallacy. It is not a fallacy that an advertisement can convince someone that something is crap. Obviously you enjoy 5E ayslyn, or the AP, or the Mines of Madness/Tomb of Horros throw back qualities of the AP, or else you wouldn't be shooting down my arguments. In the end, you are not going to convince me that 5E is any good at this juncture. That falls to Wotc. I REEEEEAAALLLLLYYYY hope that the future packets get better. I hope that in a years time I play a 5E game on google hangouts. Hell ayslyn, I hope you run that game so you can show me how fucking awesome it is, and I'll be like "Remember that argument we had a year ago on that thread? Well, I was wrong. This game is awesome." Right now though, I'm not convinced that 5E is worthy any monetary investment at all.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on May 4, 2013 7:45:18 GMT -8
What really irks me about the 'cast is most of the players have never played before. I can't figure out if Wotc is trying to target the old school gamer that likes Dungeon Crawl Classics type game or if they just don't give a shit anymore and want to promote their board games. I REALLY wanted to walk away from this thread. My last seeming aside (Mazes & Monsters) was an oblique jab to all saying "we are taking this shit too seriously and should move on to talk about ways to grow the hobby not examine our navels." But, Malifer got what I was thinking and I just have to reiterate that point. One of the players, THE female player in fact who is having fun, she is engaged in the game and this is her FIRST time playing D&D. And she gets dragged through endless character death...all the RP is very much an aside. With the Penny Arcade stuff Jim Darkmagic became a really prominent character that a listener could actually give two shits about... My last dip into a WotC organized public display of how its products are played was last fall at my local (200 miles away) game store. It was a D&D Encounters game that I ranted about here: happyjacks.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=dnd4e&action=display&thread=1119But the gist of that experience was an adversarial gm (35 yr old) with a mostly young (15-18 yr) group of players that just got all RP crushed out and was just some mini moving and dice rolling. It was a class taught for new, excited gamers by a shitty teacher. It made me sad. If WotC meant this AP to just go out to their loyal fan base that is a pretty doomed way to sell a product...cuz much of their loyal fanbase now plays Pathfinder. The seemingly random IT crowd vid clip I put on this post was meant to show what I feel is a great way to show new players how a great, immersive game can be played. Yeah its silly and nerdy its meant to be. But, the GM in the clip Moss plays his role passionately and engages his players in an immersive experience. Chris Perkins I think was the DM from the Penny Arcade stuff was also a fairly engaging at his role. The guy from this AP treats it like its just some lark..."hey we're bored you guys wanna play this d&d thing ?". THAT is what WotC chooses to represent how the guys that make the game play it ? God damn it, I wasn't going to get back into this convoluted conversation! But as someone who runs weekly introductory Pathfinder games for folks new to RPG's at my wife's bookstore; I take the idea of GROWING THE HOBBY very seriously. Its too much fun not to try to get more people to play. And finally...here's a compilation of funny cat videos: Cheers!
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Post by greatwyrm on May 4, 2013 10:40:34 GMT -8
Okay, to head off any other random arguments, I'm going to begin by stipulating everybody but me is absolutely right about everything, except this: 3. WotC introduced collectible cards in 4E. Before the system comes out, they are already incorporating collectible cards in 5E. Also, the one AP they choose to put on their podfeed has fucking collectible cards. Even with your previously stated appeal to experienced gamers, this is still an advertisement to whoever listens. They are advertising those random, collectible cards in some capacity. Once again, to deny that cards will be a part of 5E based on past evidence is ignorant. Hell, even Blizzard has given into the collectible card game bug recently. WotC is gonna make cash at every turn with D&D, or else ditch it. Collectible cards are a part of that income at every turn. And collectible cards are just another way to give ultimate, god powers to the players, which removes danger, which decreases the emotional stake in characters, which makes the game not appeal to role players, which then only leaves power gaming munchkins. The Perkins and Kurtz walk around and do random crap to you was not collectible cards. They just aren't. If they were, wouldn't they just say "oh and we're debuting this awesome new collectible thingy" to pimp it? If they were, why are there only 10 and the effects of each are listed in the DM's notes for the adventure? They're as collectible as a Deck of Many Things. Write them on a handful of index cards or ignore them completely -- neither choice makes everything fall apart. I understand you don't like collectible stuff in D&D. We're on the same side here. I don't either. I ran a two-year 4e campaign where we never touched fortune cards and nobody cared. I don't even own one. Not even as a giveaway for attending some event. If they do make them for 5e, I won't buy those either. In fact, since one of the major design goals was to make it easy to add modular stuff to the game there will probably be all kinds of optional crap I'm not interested in and won't buy. But, there might be half a dozen misguided souls somewhere who think that fortune cards (or what the fk ever) really adds something to their games. The all agree to use them and they have fun. Meanwhile, you and I ignore them completely. Everybody gets what they want. Who loses here?
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Post by Kainguru on May 4, 2013 14:46:22 GMT -8
I don't play with rules lawyers (except at con games -- just like a box of chocolates, con games). "**CENSORED**" ... Except a box of chocolates always has a card or index on the back so you always know what's inside Aaron
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Post by ayslyn on May 4, 2013 20:44:31 GMT -8
Actually, I think that the assumption that the WotC podcast is a means to get new players into the hobby is the big mistake here. No one is going to just stumble onto that podcast. It's for the people already playing. So railing that the AP is a bad example to bring people into the hobby is silly. It was never meant for that. It's meant for those people that will get the in joke that the Mines represents. Do you rail at the Ferrari dealer that their car can't accommodate a family of six? The cards used in the AP are not (at least currently) a part of 5e at all. They are specific to this one module (and more specifically, to the way two people run it). So, again, arguing that the cards prove 5e is horrible is silly. You don't like 5e... Great. You don't like the Mines of Madness... Great. Arguing that the later proves the lack of quality in the former is a fallacy at best. 1. Assumption? Then why are most of the players new? Also, WotC has a track record of trying to bring in a new breed of player with every edition by changing the rules significantly. So far they appealed to the WoW crowd with 4E (new table top gamers mostly) and ALL PEOPLE (a truly silly notion) with 5E, including those that may have left D&D. While I will not deny that there is an appeal to the experienced gamers in this AP, to deny that this is not an appeal at all to new gamers is ignorant. Two of the four are new. And they're new because this was "Scott Kurtz invites a few friends to do an AP with him", not "Lets create an AP to draw new players into D&D". As I said, the WotC podcast is not there to draw new players in. Someone who doesn't know about gaming isn't going to just stumble across the WotC podcast. So, railing that it's a bad way to introduce people to the hobby is silly. The purpose of the podcast was never to get new people into the hobby. It was for people who already knew about it, and wanted to hear more from the people who make it. They introduced the OPTION for them. There was nothing mandatory about them. And of course they're going to try to make money off the game. It's the whole purpose of a company. If they don't make money off of it, it will go away. So, where's the problem with them offering a completely optional system? Don't like it? Don't use it. That's what I did. Those that like it, they'll buy it, and that will help fund the next product which I might like.
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Post by ayslyn on May 5, 2013 8:30:26 GMT -8
Sorry for the double post, but... One last thought.
I have no vested interest in whether or not you like (or dislike) anything. I'm shooting down your arguments because they're flawed arguments in my opinion.
And I enjoy the AP, not because I enjoy that sort of game (I'm kinda like Stu in that regard, although, I could enjoy it as a one shot, knowing what I was getting into), but because I appreciate it for what it was. It's a parody of the most famous, and infamous module ever published. The meat grinder to beat all meat grinders. I found the players interactions with each other, and reactions their misfortunes hysterical, and HugHug was brilliant.
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Post by ericfromnj on May 5, 2013 19:51:05 GMT -8
(hands out some Clown Shoes Vampire Slayer stout)
everyone just have a drink.
admittedly, I like Tomb of Horrors and have played the original back in 1e days and the 3.x version that came out years later. Beer and Pretzels, man. Lots of laughs with some TPK built into it.
It's all good.
I have to agree with Stu, the whole "no right way to play if everyone is having fun" means everyone. GM. Players. Your cats. If one person has a sucky time, then it isn't the right way to play for everyone there.
hmmm....I sound like John Madden.
Happy Cinco de Mayo everyone!
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jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
FEVAH!!!!
Posts: 218
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Post by jfever on May 6, 2013 21:28:24 GMT -8
ooohh man . . . . . . .and I resign from this thread. deuces gang.
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