jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
FEVAH!!!!
Posts: 218
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Post by jfever on Apr 29, 2013 20:57:10 GMT -8
I listened to the Mines of Madness AP on the WotC podcast feed. Holy Shit. 5E is doomed. They introduce random instances where they draw a card that gives the players broken shit. They draw a card that BRINGS A DEAD CHARACTER BACK TO LIFE. What the fuck? I'm thinking about writing a longer, more detailed account of this abomination of a podcast for Douchey DM or something. . . . Please. If you had any doubts about 5E, listen to the Mines of Madness AP. Awful.
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Post by greatwyrm on Apr 29, 2013 21:14:45 GMT -8
You do realize:
1. this was an old-school-ish meat grinder adventure they ran at PAX East and was co-written by the cartoonist who does PvP
2. the April 1st release notes for the first episode included "You think you got what it takes to grab life by the stones and conquer the dungeon that won the 2012 Gygaxian Award* for Bonecrushing Awesomeness? We seriously doubt it, but go ahead . . . prove us wrong!"
3. the "draw a card / random crap" thing was something Scott Kurtz and Chris Perkins did at PAX because they thought it would be fun to just randomly mess with the various tables running it
4. if you listen to the whole run, just about all you hear of 5e is "roll a d20" frequently
I think you may be taking things just a bit too seriously.
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Post by ayslyn on Apr 30, 2013 7:48:24 GMT -8
Yeah, the draw a card thing is exclusive to the Mines adventure. And Mines was meant to be a Tomb of Horrors parody.
The Mines AP was meant to be taken lightly, and is not a serious game.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 17:13:32 GMT -8
I'm loving the Mines of Madness AP. Its excellent parody of the old Gygaxian style dungeon crawl, I mean the first death is because of a outhouse dwelling Purple Worm, a fricken shit worm eats a guy.
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jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
FEVAH!!!!
Posts: 218
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Post by jfever on Apr 30, 2013 21:36:17 GMT -8
Wizards wants us to buy this game, right?
Then why do they pick a game made by PVP which is the most rail road, non character focused game with random cards (fortune cards anyone???) to put on their podfeed for everyone to hear???
Because that is their target audience. Munchkins fresh out of World of Warcraft who will only buy things if Penny Arcade approves it. (don't get me started on Penny Arcade. When Half Life 2 was still in development, I told a friend of mine that it wasn't coming out on schedule. He didn't believe me, and posted it on Penny Arcade. He was reported multiple times and nearly booted off the forums. Fuckin tool bags.) They chose this game because it emulates their design goals.
You can choose to see it as a fun throw back, while I see it as WotC's advertisement for their new game to all the munchkin shit heads who's opinions are shaping the game. And I am not impressed.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Apr 30, 2013 22:50:11 GMT -8
FEVAH ANGRY!!
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Apr 30, 2013 23:52:27 GMT -8
I mean the first death is because of a outhouse dwelling Purple Worm, a fricken shit worm eats a guy. That only happens in my game if there is a story reason behind it: if the player is full of shit. ;D Because that is their target audience. Munchkins fresh out of World of Warcraft who will only buy things if Penny Arcade approves it. WotC's advertisement for their new game to all the munchkin shit heads who's opinions are shaping the game. That would be my professional assessment of message. Now whether or not WotC will ever know what it is doing or if this is just a bunch of guys who said "hey this wil be fun!" or "what's this button do?" I do not know. And it is neither here nor there what the background to this is. The disparaging message is exactly on point: welcome munchkin. Same disparaging jocularity that reprints old modules in slipshod fashion (poor art, poor proofing, poor construction) and calls it premium.
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scubasteve
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 82
Preferred Game Systems: Pathfinder, Dungeon World, HEX
Currently Playing: Pathfinder
Favorite Species of Monkey: Yes
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Post by scubasteve on May 1, 2013 0:13:18 GMT -8
When Half Life 2 was still in development, I told a friend of mine that it wasn't coming out on schedule. To be fair, Half Life 2 was made by Valve, they operate in Valve time, not normal time. As to 5e, I really haven't been impressed by any of the play-test packets they've sent out, but I haven't listened to the podcast at all either, so I don't really know anything about the cards. Sound pretty dumb though.
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Post by greatwyrm on May 1, 2013 4:51:29 GMT -8
You can choose to see it as a fun throw back, while I see it as WotC's advertisement for their new game to all the munchkin shit heads who's opinions are shaping the game. And I am not impressed. Out of curiosity, have you read any of the playtest stuff that's freely available directly from WotC? Any of it? Listening to those podcasts and saying 5e is gonna be a sucktastic munchkin-fest is a lot like watching a Godzilla movie and saying you've seen a comprehensive depiction of everyday life in Japan. I mean, if you have read it and didn't like it, I'd understand. Some folks just don't like D&D. But just about nothing of what the actual game is so far is really represented here.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on May 1, 2013 9:18:22 GMT -8
I mean, if you have read it and didn't like it, I'd understand. But just about nothing of what the actual game is so far is really represented here. You mean if he had read it and did like it...? Because the message being sent hee is mixed. And I think I have the answer to why this messaging is occuring. Hawke Robinson states that WotC is using the equity in the D&D name to pull sales for other products. Kind of like name dropping. This makes sense to me according to their unfathomable strategy. (Unfathomable when I look at it with the glasses of a product manager.) So if you like the game, you have reason to be even more upset.
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Post by greatwyrm on May 1, 2013 15:03:39 GMT -8
No, I mean if someone reads the playtest and didn't like it, I understand. At least that's judging the game on what it actually is, which some people may not like for any of a number of reasons. Trying to make any kind of judgment about 5e based on that series of podcasts is useless, as you hardly get any feel for how the game actually works if that's your only source.
And yes, D&D is not just an rpg, it's a brand. It's been that way for quite some time, all the way back to the D&D cartoon days, if not further. Why wouldn't they try to make additional products that people would like based on the same ideas and themes? How does it not make sense to use the most recognizable brand in a market to sell people things they might want?
Is it name dropping if they sell D&D fiction books? How about comics? The various video games? Board games? Minis? Why is it wrong to sell fiction to somebody that wants stories, but no game? Why is it wrong to sell an MMO to someone who doesn't do table-top? When people say something like, "oh selling X is gonna ruin everything," they're really saying, "I don't like it so nobody should." Fortune cards, MMO, fiction, comics, DDI, lunchboxes, whatever. For a good chunk of D&D's recent history, selling all that other stuff is the only way they've had enough money to keep D&D going in any way at all. Buy the stuff you like and ignore the rest. It can be done. I promise.
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Post by Kainguru on May 1, 2013 16:34:03 GMT -8
Seems like the oldest RPG is beset by an ongoing curse - while many other RPG's survive without further franchising beyond the game itself, D&D seems to eventual bring financial hardship to those who own it . . . TSR bust, WoTC acquired, HasbroWoTC financially under performing . . . Yet it's not fault of the game itself just corporate incompetence and basically pillock directives sent from above . . . The same shit that still haunts the film entertainment industry today (though that has improved marginally) Aaron
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Post by CreativeCowboy on May 1, 2013 16:45:24 GMT -8
greatwyrm , you are absolutely correct. However I was not referring to either merchandising strategies such as Lucas did with Star Wars or cross promotion. I was referring to the fact that D&D (brand/product) seems to be run without a product manager. Their marketing missteps make this abundantly clear.
What WotC is doing is trying to run D&D as a corporate brand. To any experienced marketer, this strategy is just plain dumb. But it explains why marketing D&D is directionless. It explains why all this pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey (edition wars) because the blindfolded marketers at WotC are running in circles to hit a piñata.
There are many differences between corporate branding and product branding but the overarching thematic difference is that a corporate brand strategy is chosen to appeal to a wide audience and a brand is to appeal to a specific segment of that audience. This fundamental mistake never dawned on me until it was reported in the video.
Hence it makes sense to me now as the reason why all the mixed messages, lack of focus, and even the play test MacGuffin itself.
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jfever
Journeyman Douchebag
FEVAH!!!!
Posts: 218
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Post by jfever on May 1, 2013 21:14:05 GMT -8
The first game I ever DMed was a 3.5 game. I ran a 4.0 game for over 2 years. I playtested 5.0 in 4 different games, and have read over every new iteration. I also started a different thread in this same sub forum referencing an article about 5.0 being the most player powerful edition of D&D so far.
so yeah .. . I have read over it.
Which is exactly why I feel the way I feel about the AP. It is completely exemplary of their design thus far with 5.0 mixed with a little bit of their design towards the tail end of 4.0: munchkin loot fests mixing in collectible cards with fuckall attention paid to investing in your character and telling stories.
In summary: My opinion of the AP is directly influenced by their playtest packets. I can clearly see the parallel between their horrible design concepts and the AP chosen by Wizards to represent their product in podcast form. Also, I find it interesting that what they chose to turn into an AP, which emulates their design concepts exactly, is supposed to be a joke. 5E = Joke
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Post by greatwyrm on May 1, 2013 21:58:16 GMT -8
It's funny how two people can look at the same thing and see something so radically different.
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