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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jun 28, 2013 18:59:43 GMT -8
SO. Mike Mearles DM'd module A1 - Slave Pits of the Undercity for a D&D Next game showcase. www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dnd/livestreamA1It live streamed 14:00 Pacific time (22:00 Central Europe) and he promises the actual play will be available online (somewhere). Highlights (taken from comments because I was going to bed): [*]Usage of battlemat [*]Long, convoluted combat.
I am interested to witness how he makes use of the map bound into the book. Reading between the lines, using the battlemat means no thought of a mapper role exists in D&D 5e. The A1 series has a nice campaign story to it and is a favourite of mine. It was a module I cut my teeth on and role-played infiltrating the slavers camp (which was entirely role-playing with the DM and the other players hanging on the results while I was in the spotlight - details of which I vaguely recall except for the fact all of these guys with whom I played were physical bullies to me EXCEPT when we played and eventually stopped beating me as a result of playing together - so, yeah, hooray for RPGs!) The battlemat usage signifies to me that I would still be receiving those beatings after this game. ( internet explorer: not the game I remember)
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Post by Kainguru on Jun 29, 2013 1:02:16 GMT -8
But CC a battlemat is a battle mat not a dungeon map. It is used exclusively for battles with either tokens or miniatures. Few products (modules, adventure paths etc) come with battlemats. Some have separately available battlemats for purchase. A battlemap is no different than a square of A4 with everyone's location drawn in and scratched out as combat progressed (old school on budget). Battlemats have been available since forever - the classic being the white vinyl with grids on one side and a hex on the other - draw area with whiteboard marker throw down minis and good to go. In my student days I appropriated a freebie fridge sticker that was a bit smaller than A4 and made of cardboard but whiteboard marker friendly. Chopped off the promotion tab and used biro to grid it out to scale. One free battlemat circa 1985. The term battlemat came later which is why it appears to be a new idea. Though I recall it's earliest mention in AD&D 2e Players Option Combat and Tactics. A battlemat's scale is usually 1inch to 5 feet - they are large which is why they aren't supplied as standard. Plus a single battlemat is usually only one room without rooms nearby being mapped. I printed one for AD&D 1e TOEE a few weeks ago. The rooms on the first level of the Earth Temple where the head Clerics hole up. Just that set of rooms for 1 combat took 10 sheets of A4 to scale and covered over half the table Aaron
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jun 29, 2013 10:12:15 GMT -8
Death of social/creative Role-playing = Battlemat. PERIOD.
When English -language people cannot visualize - and I have ESL (English non-native speakers) people visualizing - then there is something wrong with the communication.
When needing to know the exact co-ordinates of an area affect spell trunps the players ability to control the AoE then the game rules the players. I am not suggesting to control a AoE in a confined aeroplane lavatory but, you know, within reason.
Once in a while for something complicated, you know complex, like a three-tier running battle while scaling or rappelling against ranged units, flying units and giants... then yes. But for 2:1 fight in a the mundane 40 x 40 room? Seriously?
Mapper.
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Post by Kainguru on Jun 29, 2013 11:19:50 GMT -8
Yeah seriously. If you are playing Pathfinder that 5 step could be crucial to an AoO or be confined by the contents of the room. Battlemats have been around since the Hyborian age. A tactical plan drawn in the sand is a battle mat. A piece of paper with initials in circles representing the relative positions is a battle mat. If I've just spent £5 on some reaper miniatures I want use them. They look cool . . . And it stops munchkin cheaters. You know the player with Paladin who is always at the front of every combat despite the obvious impossibility of getting there except thru teleportation (yeah Ross I remember, it may be 25+ years ago but I think my hatred of Paladins come from your cock blocking my thief's attempts at stealth everytime) Usually the battlemat is secondary to the 'action' it exists on the table amongst the pop and pizza and crisps - referenced when needed. Aaron The PC's ambush Selina Wildsmith and her relief force after discovering the secret of the Cavern of the GreenMan. The giant rat is actually a stand in for 'Oscar' the rust monster Attachments:
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 29, 2013 14:16:11 GMT -8
Death of social/creative Role-playing = Battlemat. PERIOD. Absolute twaddle.
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Post by Kainguru on Jun 29, 2013 15:13:48 GMT -8
Death of social/creative Role-playing = Battlemat. PERIOD. Absolute twaddle. I originally wrote something similar but changed my mind in favour of the above. Sometimes simple is best. Besides I really don't get this whole new age hippy shit that objects to anything even mildly tactical - "cause it might, like, interfere with the story, you know, man"* . In real life I consider the weekly grocery shop a tactical assault to get my supplies for a cheap as possible in the shortest time possible - if ASDA had a consistent layout of products on shelves (instead of moving them around in the hope I might buy some other shit) I'd have a fully detailed battle mat at home with GPS coordinates so I could plot the optimum course. Aaron * did I mention how much I hate hippies? almost as much I hate shopping (rather I hate the other shoppers more than the shopping itself)
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jun 30, 2013 1:29:12 GMT -8
Death of social/creative Role-playing = Battlemat. PERIOD. Absolute twaddle. I see you have been dipping into the thesaurus, again, ayslyn. Would you care to broaden your vocabulary or have you slaked your intellectual capacity? When the battlemat comes out, role-playing ends.
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Post by greatwyrm on Jun 30, 2013 4:28:28 GMT -8
Would you care to broaden your vocabulary or have you slaked your intellectual capacity? Would you care to make your point without a personal attack?
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jun 30, 2013 4:50:57 GMT -8
Would you care to broaden your vocabulary or have you slaked your intellectual capacity? Would you care to make your point without a personal attack? I would if there was an actual argument put forth [as anyone familar with my **CENSORED** argument on the Do Systems Matter Thread knows]. Sitting back and saying "absolute twaddle" is a personal attack. To me, it's the spitball from the back of the class hitting me on the back of the head. What I have said, the actual opinion I take the time to contribute, is not twaddle. It may be wrong. It may be one perspective. It is not twaddle. Now, that said, I commend anyone expanding their vocabulary.
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Post by The Northman on Jun 30, 2013 6:02:55 GMT -8
Death of social/creative Role-playing = Battlemat. PERIOD. Miniatures and maps can make it more difficult to maintain immersion and role playing as the game portion overshadows story when you bring them in. But an all-caps absolute that indicates there's somehow no room for any other interpretation or way to overcome it with the proper amount of effort is a bit much. On a side note, someone attacking an idea, no matter how vehemently, but making no assertions or insults toward the person who expressed that idea is not a personal attack. Someone can say 'This is absolute drivel,' or 'I'm getting tired of these posts that border on stream-of-consciousness and don't leave room for conversation or debate with anyone other than the original poster,' or even 'that sounds incredibly stupid,' without saying anything about the person behind the keyboard. In every environment other than the internet, that's an easy distinction to make - the difference in reaction I get from telling a person they're 'acting crazy,' vs the reaction I get if I just tell them 'You're crazy,' is a huge difference. Similarly, when coaching if I criticize an athlete's technique ('You couldn't knock my three-year-old daughter over with your hips that high.') it's okay. If I criticize the athlete ('You're <weak/substandard/female genetalia>') as some coaches do, I've crossed a line. TL/DR: If you truly believe you're making an absolute statement, don't post it on a forum where people respond and/or debate. And everyone calm down.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jun 30, 2013 8:28:07 GMT -8
I guess I am a little touchy when I have a lifetime of hearing how slow and retarded I am as a basis to attack my arguments, conveniently without asserting a counter argument, summarily dismissing my argument and myself for arguing it.
Believe it or not, I do take more than a few moments to gather my thoughts into a coherent post. Sometimes I struggle with it. Now take what you do, have it dismissed, and tell me I do not feel as personally violated as your athlete if you can.
If my contributions here are of no consequence - beneath consideration (Monty Python sketch) - I can stop contributing. That solves the problem, frees my time, and I appear less foolish for arguing with shadows too insecure with their own positions even to articulate them in the daylight.
Let me put it into clear contrast. A guy that is overweight, striving to work on himself and people dismiss his efforts and even attact his physique is no different from a guy with a lowered intellectual capacity striving to work on himself and people dismissing and even attacking his intellect. Contradiction is not an argument. At its base foundation, it is an afront to the person speaking: a heckler.
I think it has been said enough times that the appearance of the battlemat is the end of role-playing. True, I was not the first to report it. Maybe that fact should carry some greater weight?
In the end, regardless of the opinions and these are all opinions of greater and lesser acceptance, we are arguing points about a hobby. Not curing cancer or contributing to a scientific study. Regardless the content or the importance, I will stand up for myself even if I am the only one to do so as I have often had to do so in the past. If I wish to remain here, I will have some respect.
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 30, 2013 9:49:33 GMT -8
I think it has been said enough times that the appearance of the battlemat is the end of role-playing. And I repeat it. This argument is absolute twaddle. Bringing out the minis/appearance of the battlemat is only the end of role-playing if YOU let it. Personally, in my group, it continues along merrily. In my current 4e game, my Warden gets even chattier in combat than he does out of it, and he's no slouch out of combat. I'll also point at JiB's Sturmgeist AP for this. There was plenty of RP during their fights. But, beyond all that.... Think about all the fights you've been in, the fight scenes you've seen in movies, or read in books. How much REAL conversation occurs during them? Not a whole bloody lot. And there's a reason for that. Fights happen when the talking breaks down. It's no longer the time for deep, intellectual exchanges of ideas. So, it's not a real surprise when deep character RP takes a backseat when the fighting starts. Because it's no longer the focus of the story at that point.
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Post by Kainguru on Jun 30, 2013 10:15:32 GMT -8
It's all hippy shit. Thespians and Real Roleplayers are on the same continuum as Min Maxers and Munchkins. The pendulum has swung from game to favour story recently - that's hippies for you - eventually it will swing back and sit where it should : in the middle, in balance. Besides what's so fucking wrong with combat and mini's and tactics? I came from an SPI gaming background - moving army chits across the field and calculating odds. There is nothing wrong with bringing a little of this into an RPG - full immersion, all the time has a very definite term : psychosis. Don't trust hippies or their hippy shit - RPG = it's a story, it's a game, it's fantasy and it simulated reality. Yin Yang . . . Balance . . . That's the key. Otherwise you'll end up sitting around with plastic elf ears glued on 24/7 eating mushrooms and talking to unicorns ('it's a post box you stupid hippy, the red flag means you've got mail - it's not a unicorn horn!!!'). Anyway . . . FLAME ON (I love that shit) Aaron PS flame wars warm that dark part of my soul usually reserved for killing PC's.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jun 30, 2013 12:11:03 GMT -8
First, ayslyn, thank you for deigning to express your opinion to me (HappyJacks board readers) rather than just attack my argument with no it isn’t. Your opinion may be wrong, but I give you credit for at least having the temerity to express it. I think that action adds value to this discussion and certainly shows me (and the other readers) more respect. It certainly expresses a deeper interest in the topic on your part than simply gainsaying like a boss. And second, let me engage you and ask: Concerning specifically your combat role-playing experience, do you role-play using activation power cards, feats and skills as an expression of your characters? You appear to me to be saying that either barking orders in the heat of battle or channeling comic book quips [ gonna rip me a new one] is the apex of role-playing in combat, getting “ even chattier in combat” while using your PC’s At Will and Daily powers. We do not use a battlemat so let me illustrate what happens without one. The mapper maps in the enclosed spaces (dungeon usually) and slows the party down in making a map that allows them to freely move at full rate when going over mapped areas. It also suggests where secret doors are – duh. Along with giving all the sensory information of the areas being explored, I also give the visuals and measurements. Outside adventures get distances given to players as well as immediate objects (trees, broken stonewalls, etc) sometimes relating these to the distance between my window and the kabap stand across the street for those of us with difficulty imagining what 60 feet looks like. I do not know if that is 60 feet but at least the archers and the melee fighters have a clue about closing ranges. We go around the table clockwise according to Wisdom Ability Score with people declaring what they are going to do, each player building upon the other player’s statement like the suitcase game. Players use simple English. I do not overrule a player’s decision to charge between here and the kabap stand simply because it will not be introduced into the rules 25 years into the future. Our cleric calls upon her God for a spell and the God appears in her mind’s eye, a physical manifestation to her, and bestows the divine gift in the form of a conversation: what would you like for an effect? Wham! Close enough for the level. It is a prayer and an act of faith from the cleric – a player new-to-the-hobby. The critical chart at the higher ends require hand pounding the table and loud cheers/battle cries for damage to be applied. Damage given to the players’ opponents is information for the players directly committed in that melee. There is no Attack of Opportunity tripe. They can share the information about requiring assistance or not requiring assistance each round, which only then can impact the round robin of table declarations at round-by-round initiative. Ranged players can also shout what they can see from a distance – you may call them Controllers but I cannot because our language is 30+ years behind 4e. We also use material components which led to a problem to resolve with the magic user summoning an unseen servant, requiring the party to scrounge a piece of wood and string just ahead of a combat – granted they were unaware of this but I feel righteous to include it because the unseen servant made the difference in that combat. That was also in character stuff at the table not hand waved role-playing. We are unconcerned about every 5 foot step and do not need a grid. Grid maps are scaled as one quad: 10 feet. Close enough. When someone gets into range, I provide the sensory cue – both ways. And players imagine the battle. Sure, nothing wrong with someone chattering: Come Get Some! In fact, it might inspire a morale check from the bad guys. Even the bad guys can taunt (just regular English not a power) the players. And, if someone wants to wield a long sword and a hand axe and then a long sword and a shield, there is no build for that. That is all role-play. I want you to know this is just cursory to all what goes on in my games. I do not know all the computations and permutations to present them to you because this role-play is an organic happening. Apart from the homemade spell cards to help the new-to-the-hobby wizard and cleric, there are no cues what to do. And I juggle what is said to me on a regular basis, which informs my argument that **CENSORED**. Now **CENSORED** spoken I will concede that 4e does not have to be an analogue video game. My argument is, after all, **CENSORED**. But I will emphatically say that when the minutia of the game, such as using the rulers used in war games, takes precedence over the imaginations of the players --- when players need to suspend their imaginations and what they bring to the game in favour of this objective rules minutia such as a battlemat --- role playing stops. And when 4e is the system and not the GM of 4e, the game is the analogue video game that was discussed in Season 10 episode 4 of the HappyJacks’ podcast. Anyway . . . FLAME ON (I love that shit) I do not. I do not like to be cheap entertainment or waste my time, of which I have precious little. Never argue with a fool - they will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
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Post by Kainguru on Jun 30, 2013 12:46:02 GMT -8
CC don't intimate I'm a fool that's a cheap personal shot. YOU may not like flame wars BUT there are plenty of people, like me and STU, who DO. intimate I'm a fool or any such and I will make a scathing personal attack in public in return . . . take this flame war of a thread for what it is. If you don't like flame wars or you think that being mature is to sit in self righteous indignation and dismissivness of them then you are cutting yourself off from NORMAL social interaction . . . Flame wars are the Internet equivalent of shooting the shit with a bunch of mates sat around a table in a pub - you don't agree with each other, you argue the toss and it gets lively. Better than just sitting around with warm beers staring at each other wondering if you should get your dick out to provoke some fucking life from them. To quote Withnail "the first thing I'll do is put in a fucking jukebox to liven up you stiffs". Besides I did offer a coherent counter argument that you choose to ignore. Hippy shit is hippy shit and thespians and real role players are as asinine as munchkins and min maxers. You yourself have previously said as much, yet to maintain an indefensible position you change politic. At least I remain consistent in being a fence sitting douch bag - the middle road may not be popular but I stick to it. Fucking hippies. Aaron
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