maxinstuff
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Preferred Game Systems: DCC RPG, Shadowrun 5e, Savage Worlds, GURPS 4e, HERO 6e, Mongoose Traveller
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 10, 2013 15:43:41 GMT -8
So do we want to see a villain like Joker fully written up as if he were a PC - cos if I used him as a villain I wouldn't do that In DCC I would write him up something like this: JokerAtt: knife (melee +2) 1d6, Act: 2d20, AC: 12, HD: 3d8 (12), Mv: 30", Ref: +2, Fort: +0, Will: +5, SP: Handshake (poison), AL: C Of course - the stats say almost nothing about him except for combat purposes - and that is the last place Joker wants to be! I would have lots of notes on his motivations and plans (Ha!) in an actual game.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 10, 2013 18:58:10 GMT -8
Personally I think it flavours your experience of the game world more than your role play - but there is certainly an indirect effect on role play via the assumptions of how various 'things' work in the system.
If you played Batman in GURPS for example you would be very careful not to get shot at due to the horrible multipliers 'small piercing' hits to the torso or vitals get. In DCC RPG this might be less important as a gun might just do a d6 of damage - unmodified except in the case of a crit. This is enough to one-shot a mook but not Batman. It is still dangerous - but he isn't about to get insta-murdered in the face.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2013 8:39:17 GMT -8
I honestly get some enjoyment out of creating characters in Gurps, Savage Worlds, D&D 3.x. This is a solo activity and it is fun to min-max and see how different feats, advantages, and disadvantages work together.
For the medium to heavy rules systems, you can often have an OK time even with a crappy DM, because a lot of the game is so well codified. For a rules light system, it is crucial that your DM is at least good. I'd map it like this:
Great GM + medium/heavy Rules= good game. Average GM + Medium/heavy Rules = good game. Poor GM + Medium/heavy rules = fair game
Great GM + Light rules = Excellent game Average GM + Light Rules = Good game Poor GM + Light rules = crappy game.
In other words, with a great GM, I think you get a better game with lighter rules. WIth a crappy GM, you get a better game with heavier rules... the rules act as a buffer, moderating the GM influence whether that influence is for good or bad.
Another point about rules: the more rules you have, the more necessary it is to "play to the character sheet". If your character sheet has a skill "Climb trees", and you don't have that skill, then it is much harder to simply decide to climb a tree. I think there is more freedom when there are fewer rules.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2013 9:23:57 GMT -8
All excellent points. So, what would you say is the advantage of one system over the other if level of detail has nothing to do with the roleplaying experience? Also "Roleplaying Experience" is a really broad term... wouldn't say that the level of detail has "nothing to do with the roleplaying experience", in fact, it has everything to do with the roleplaying experience. I was disagreeing with your theory that the rules-heavy systems necessarily lead to "deeper roleplaying". For example, if a game has a statistic for "sanity" and sanity slowly ticks down, then that adds an element of doom to the characters... they have a limited amount of time as effective protagonists before the lack of sanity dooms them to being unplayable... this is the opposite of a game that has an "oppponents killed" statistic that makes the character stronger the more opponents they kill. In the latter game, the characters grow stronger over time, killing more and more opponents. These two systems will have vastly different roleplaying experiences, based on the mechanics of the game. I also distinguish between "Roleplaying" and "Gaming". Roleplaying is what you do when you imagine what your character would do based on their motivations and desires and abilities... you are playing the role. Gaming is what you do when you consult the skills and realize that you have a 85% chance to succeed at the skill roll, and decide to take that chance. A more detailed system necessarily allows for more "gaming"... regardless of the "roleplaying".
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Post by stork on Jul 11, 2013 10:25:29 GMT -8
Here's is a Batman build in Strands of FATE, also found online: Campaign Power Level Legendary Hero You could probably get a legitimate version of Batman as low as Action Hero or as high as World Class Super Hero, but I'd stick him here, right below a superhuman power level, by default. Defining Character Aspect: Billionaire Businessman Turned Vigilante Crime fighter Character Aspects "I can change Gotham." Tormented by his Parents' Death Secret Identity: Bruce Wayne Never Kills or Uses Guns Abilities PHYSICAL Agility: 4 Endurance: 3 Perception: 3 Strength: 3 MENTAL Craft: 2 Knowledge: 2 Reasoning: 3 Willpower: 4 SOCIAL Deception: 4 Empathy: 2 Persuasion: 2 Resources: 5 Specialty Aspects World's Greatest Detective (Reasoning) "Where does he get those wonderful toys?" (Resources) "That man won't quit as long as he can still draw breath." (Willpower) A Family of Former Sidekicks (Persuasion) Can't Have a Normal Relationship (Persuasion) Advantages Experienced x5 (10 AP) This allows Batman to have the higher-than-normal ability scores that he does. Headquarters x3 (3 AP) This allows Batman to have the Batcave and get a bonus to rolls while in there. Taking the advantage 3 times lets him use it as a research library, lab, and a workshop. Cover of Darkness (2 AP) Any aspect that refers to darkness or dim light becomes persistent for Batman. That lets him get a +2 from it without spending a Fate point. Oh here is a link to the whole Justice league in FATE core. FATE JLA
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jul 11, 2013 16:25:18 GMT -8
I'd map it like this: Great GM + medium/heavy Rules= good game. Average GM + Medium/heavy Rules = good game. Poor GM + Medium/heavy rules = fair game Great GM + Light rules = Excellent game Average GM + Light Rules = Good game Poor GM + Light rules = crappy game. Not to derail this thread (and I do intend on posting a Batman built in Ubiquity), but I really have to disagree with you, @olshanski. "Light rule" systems do rely more on GM adjudication than "heavy rule" systems, and therefore the GM's ability/skill has a much more palpable impact on the game. But I'd argue that no system, whether rule light or heavy, can make up for having a poor GM. It's just a different kind of bad.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 11, 2013 17:19:44 GMT -8
It's just a different kind of bad. *slow clap*
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Post by jazzisblues on Jul 15, 2013 11:27:10 GMT -8
I'd map it like this: Great GM + medium/heavy Rules= good game. Average GM + Medium/heavy Rules = good game. Poor GM + Medium/heavy rules = fair game Great GM + Light rules = Excellent game Average GM + Light Rules = Good game Poor GM + Light rules = crappy game. Not to derail this thread (and I do intend on posting a Batman built in Ubiquity), but I really have to disagree with you, @olshanski. "Light rule" systems do rely more on GM adjudication than "heavy rule" systems, and therefore the GM's ability/skill has a much more palpable impact on the game. But I'd argue that no system, whether rule light or heavy, can make up for having a poor GM. It's just a different kind of bad. This is in my opinion the fundamental difference between "rules light" and "rules heavy" systems. All of the games rely on an implicit agreement of everyone around the table, with rules light systems that agreement is more between people where with rules heavy systems it is based on rules as written. Neither is better or worse or right or wrong, they are just ... different. JiB
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Post by jazzisblues on Jul 17, 2013 5:32:36 GMT -8
This is in my opinion the fundamental difference between "rules light" and "rules heavy" systems. All of the games rely on an implicit agreement of everyone around the table, with rules light systems that agreement is more between people where with rules heavy systems it is based on rules as written. Neither is better or worse or right or wrong, they are just ... different. JiB JiB, I am currently running a homebrew pulp SciFi campaign in Savage Worlds. All the players and I, as GM, must have an understanding about the tone and pacing of the game. Each player adds their own unique flavor to our game. However, in a rules light system, I feel that players are given more licence to interpret than in a rules heavy enviornment. You absolutely raise a valid point. I think that it's more a result of the players and the gm than it is the game system how much license any given participant has to interpret what's going on. JiB
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D.T. Pints
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JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 22, 2013 21:09:31 GMT -8
I'm working on a batman in call of Cthulhu ...sanity 0? I am think that this will be amaaaazing! Almost done. I was thinking more along the lines of OLD school Detective Stories Batman than the modern day Dark Knight. But he'll still be pretty low on SAN.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Aug 16, 2013 12:22:19 GMT -8
I snagged this from wikipedia because someone did a better job than me of trying to summarize Batman's early persona. Bleak and menacing sounds much more Lovecraftian to me...something that was attempted in the later films but in my opinion to overloaded with fucking gadgets... He'll have the utility belt, batarang, and the bat plane. And he will most likely be bat shit crazy... DYSWIDT? (no? still not a thing? shit.) The thing thats taking the time toll is determining his skills...like the GURPS version the skill list could be FUCKING LONG.... But I do like this exercise. I also like the idea of having a game using the early DC heroes in the 1930's Cthulhu 'verse. Been done before probably. But Superman vs Cthulhu ? *Wanders off to the Googles* Nope not a really any good images for that. Maybe turgid with possibility...i.e. JACKERCON 2013 PART DEUX GAME!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 13:20:15 GMT -8
Batman has already been done to death in Marvel Heroic RP (the system i usually contibute to these things) but here is one writeup:
Bruce Wayne - the Batman
Solo D10, Buddy D8, Team D6
Distinctions: Billionaire playboy, world's greatest detective, The Dark Knight
Powersets:
A LIFE OF TRAINING enhanced reflexes d8 enhanced strength d8 enhanced stamina d8 enhanced senses d8 enhanced Psychic resistance d8
SFX: Bat Level Effort. Step up or double any LIFE OF TRAINING power die on your next roll, or spend 1 PP to do both. Then shut down that power. Recover power by activating an opportunity or during a transition scene.
SFX: Second Wind. Before making an action with A LIFE OF TRAINING power, you may move your physical stress to the doom pool and step up that power by +1.
SFX: Immunity. Spend 1 PP to ignore emotional stress or trauma.
Limit: Exhausted. Shut down any A LIFE OF TRAINING power and gain 1 PP. Recover power by activating an opportunity or during a transition scene.
BAT GEAR Durability d8 swing-line d6 weapon d8 gadgets d8
SFX: Area effect. Target multiple opponents. For every additional target, add d6 and +1 effect die.
SFX: Grapple. Add d6 and step up your effect die by +1 when inflicting a complication on a target.
Limit: Gear. Take a PP to shut down any Bat-Gear power. Take an action vs the doom pool to recover gear.
Specialties: Acrobatic expert, business master, covert master, crime master, tech expert, psych expert, menace master, combat master
Milestones: Under Your Wing 1 XP When you choose to aid a hero for the first time 3 XP When you take stress for that hero 10 XP When you choose to take that hero on as your new sidekick, or dismiss them.
I Am The Night! 1 XP When you first inflict emotional stress on a foe 3 XP When you inflict stress or trauma on an ally 10 XP When your choice to inflict stress or trauma on an ally turns out for the best
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