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Post by Stu Venable on Jul 25, 2013 6:48:22 GMT -8
True dat.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 27, 2013 23:24:33 GMT -8
TotalBiscuit on the youtubez has posted a video about kickstarter that specifically mentions 'The Doom That Came to Atlantic City' and other projects. He is pretty well known for being opposed to pre-ordering, and so has copped some flak for backing kickstarter projects. He makes some interesting points about the differences.
His main focus is video games, and the issue is arguably worse over in the land of pixels and bits. Video game kickstarters kicked off in a big way in March 2012 when doublefine got something like 1000% of it's funding goal. That game still isn't out. And there have been an embarrassingly small number of games actually release since then despite many, many successfully funded kickstarters.
I know of only two video games kickstarters that have actually been released since being funded -
Faster Than Light - a very cool space roguelike that is obviously heavily inspired by traveller Shadowrun Returns - just came out and the kickstarter was probably more for publicity than anything else. I'm fairly sure it would have come out anyway.
and I'll mention uber's effort - Planetary Annihilation, which has made it to alpha testing and they seem to be on track. It feels like forever since my backer funds disappeared from my credit card however.
The vid:
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Post by greatwyrm on Jul 28, 2013 5:54:13 GMT -8
There also the fact that unintended things might happen to the inventory before it gets distributed. A company like Steve Jackson Games might have enough insurance to cover it if, say, the warehouse holding the Ogre games burns to the ground. But you think most organizers are going to do that? Or accounted for the cost of insuring what they're working on? That's the story I know is coming before much longer. A guy loses a $50k print run in a garage fire and finds out his homeowners policy doesn't cover that unless he gets an endorsement he didn't have. Either that or some tech widget is responsible for a house fire and the producer doesn't have completed products liability.
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Post by malifer on Jul 29, 2013 4:25:14 GMT -8
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Post by malifer on Jul 29, 2013 4:36:30 GMT -8
Wow! This does not give something like Kickstarter a good rep. As someone pointed out I think in the comments page of Tenkar's blog this kind of fuck-up seems to happen more to the Kickstarters that way over fund. The little guys that get just what the asked for tend to come out okay. I'm not sure if it is the crazy stretch goals or the inability of someone to correctly manage a lot of money all at once, but if you read the drama behind say Axes and Avils, that Mike Nystul had it in his head that he was on a path of greatness and nothing would slow him down. I can almost see from their perspective. I know there have been times in my life I get a large tax return and I go on a spending spree and out to a fancy dinner. However I also know that has to stop once I reach X amount of dollars and no one is counting on me to use the money wisely. Then again there have also been times when that tax return came just in time to fix my car so I could make it to work for the next month. I love kickstarter, but there are going to be problems. There are some people out there that really are just a few dollars short of creating something they dream of, but there are also people that are all talk and blame it on not having any money. I am now looking at two way overdue projects. But I don't chip in more than I'm willing to lose. I'm not saying backers don't have a right to a refund, but I'm not going to fight very hard for less than $20.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 29, 2013 13:49:35 GMT -8
So what if - just maybe - a kickstarter was automatically closed to further backer funds when it hit its target?
In this respect crowdfunding is VERY different from venture capital. If I am a venture capitalist - do you think I am giving you more money than your business case justifies? FUCK NO!
You take your budget and you manage the project to it dammit.
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Post by Stu Venable on Jul 29, 2013 15:06:37 GMT -8
The kickstarter organizer has posted his next update.
If you look through the entirety of his updates, it paints an interesting picture.
Here's my working theory.
The artwork and such wasn't completely ready when it funded, so that took time. (no harm dipping in to the kickstarter money a bit, is there. Just a bit to get myself something nice). Artwork is shipped to China. Chinese explain their requirements for artwork (or some such delay). (I'll just pull a little more out...) Organizer continues working on art... (I think I'll move. Need first and last month's rent!)
repeat.
By the time everything that needed to be in China was in China, the money was gone (or enough of it that he couldn't afford to pay the Chinese.
He's already letting people know that if they continue to "harass" him legally, his remaining money will just go to lawyers and no one will get paid. (this is a common tactic used to stop people from suing deadbeats, btw. There's a certain truth to it, so it usually works.)
$122,000 is a lot of money to raise and still live.
The other thing people need to look at is where this money went. Did he pay any artists or other subcontractors? Did they complete work that will never get used, or were they friends who shared in his boon and produced nothing?
From what I've read, this seems to be a case of a popular project being spearheaded by a guy with no qualifications to get it done.
From the last update, I get the impression that he doesn't think he did anything wrong. For that, I hope the authorities do pursue charges. He could use some jail time.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 29, 2013 15:33:45 GMT -8
The kickstarter organizer has posted his next update. If you look through the entirety of his updates, it paints an interesting picture. Here's my working theory. The artwork and such wasn't completely ready when it funded, so that took time. (no harm dipping in to the kickstarter money a bit, is there. Just a bit to get myself something nice). Artwork is shipped to China. Chinese explain their requirements for artwork (or some such delay). (I'll just pull a little more out...) Organizer continues working on art... (I think I'll move. Need first and last month's rent!) repeat. By the time everything that needed to be in China was in China, the money was gone (or enough of it that he couldn't afford to pay the Chinese. He's already letting people know that if they continue to "harass" him legally, his remaining money will just go to lawyers and no one will get paid. (this is a common tactic used to stop people from suing deadbeats, btw. There's a certain truth to it, so it usually works.) $122,000 is a lot of money to raise and still live. The other thing people need to look at is where this money went. Did he pay any artists or other subcontractors? Did they complete work that will never get used, or were they friends who shared in his boon and produced nothing? From what I've read, this seems to be a case of a popular project being spearheaded by a guy with no qualifications to get it done. From the last update, I get the impression that he doesn't think he did anything wrong. For that, I hope the authorities do pursue charges. He could use some jail time. A court order to make the project books (financial books that is) available to backers and their legal representatives might not be too expensive or difficult.......
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 1:11:20 GMT -8
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 1, 2013 12:24:43 GMT -8
That's pretty amazing. I wonder who they are and how they're funding this.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 1, 2013 12:47:48 GMT -8
Kickstarter is, from the start, micro-capitalism. You invest based on a perceived risk and hedge against an expected return. Just like stock holders you shouldn't really expect dick if your investment fails - the fact that kickstarter has a hard coded returns policy is better than expected. The higher the risk the greater the return for investment should be a general guideline - if a $10 pledge to kickstart a project by an unknown gets you half the world then you've probably lost $10 - but then again the risk might pay off, in which case which half of the world do you wish to rule as undisputed God- Emperor. Aaron
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Post by ayslyn on Aug 1, 2013 14:03:57 GMT -8
That's pretty amazing. I wonder who they are and how they're funding this. Cryptozooic is the company that picked up the WoW TCG license. I suspect that they might be looking at this as a sort of loss leader sort of situation, since it's GREAT PR for them.
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 1, 2013 15:18:10 GMT -8
Ah, that makes sense, then. They are going to get all kinds of good will for coming to the rescue.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Aug 2, 2013 2:42:15 GMT -8
So what does this mean for the obligations of the failed publisher..... He still gonna refund everybody? Does he now owe the new publisher??
This is a really unusual situation here......
Edit: 'Moral hazard' is a phrase that comes to mind :/
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Post by greatwyrm on Aug 2, 2013 5:20:44 GMT -8
The failed publisher is still on the hook for refunds since he didn't provide anything. *If* there was a print-and-play only reward, those people might be done, since they've actually been made whole. I'd actually be more worried that the new publisher opened themselves up to problems by stepping in at this point.
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